After SSHE
 

OK, the search function and I don't get along well. Its awesome helping me find something if I have the poster's handle, but not so good at giving me results. So please, no search comments. I have read and re-read SSHE. As well as re-re-read some of the tougher sections. I did quite well at the .5/1 (full ring and 6-max) levels at UB. Recently I went to Atlantic City and played 2/4 and 3/6 and found the book even more helpful with the players there. I won a lot, though its a small sample. With some of the money, I was going to buy another poker book. Next time I go in a few months, I am going to take a shot at 5/10 with my winnings. OK, so the question is, what book would be most beneficial to buy next?

Re: After SSHE
 

-Theory of Poker
-Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players

Don't play limit too often, so I'm not sure how much the last title will work at 5/10 live.

Re: After SSHE
 

Theory of Poker definately
Hold'em for Advance Players as you move up in limits (or so I've been told. Apparently some of the more advanced plays are less useful against fish.)

As as supplement to SSHE, I'd read Weighing the Odds in Hold'em by Yao. The first 100 pages are review, but his later chapters, and short handed stuff are great!

If you're playing B&M I'd also read Caro's book of tells.

Re: After SSHE
 

5/10 live or online? 5/10 the players suck and SSHE is what you need.

Re: After SSHE
 

5/10 live is definitely small stakes and SSHE is the way to go. After I read HPFAP I suddenly found myself applying some things best left to tougher games and struggled a bit until I realized I need to save some of those plays for higher limits.

I'd grab Theory of Poker next or HPFAP.

Re: After SSHE
 

I'd say all the books listed already (TOP, HEPFAP, WTO) but also consider "The Psychology of Poker". It'll help you focus more on yourself and what type of player you are and thus help you identify which type of game best suits you to play in.

It'll also give you strategies to play the different types of players you'll come up against and a it containg quick reference points in how to assess the type of player you are up against even by the way they dress (if you are playing B&M games).

Definitely a great supplement for SSH and any of the other books listed.

Re: After SSHE
 

I play 5-10 live or 10-20 live almost exclusively. Any of the books mentioned above would be a good read, but I would suggest you reread and study SSHE as your main preparation. Even at 10-20 this will be most helpful.

Re: After SSHE
 

I remember skimming through Ed Miller's new book, "Getting Started in Hold'em", and I seem to remember that he had book recommendations for continuing your poker education in there.

I don't remember what they are, but it's a place to look.

Re: After SSHE
 

In addition to the above, grab How Good is Your Limit Hold'em by Byron Jacobs. You'll be a limit stud in no time.

Re: After SSHE
 

You should get Theory of Poker... the best poker book I've ever read.

When I get my friends started playing limit, I recommend in this order...

Theory of Poker
Small Stakes Hold'em
Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker
Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players
Middle Limit Hold'em

and I've heard nothing but good things about How Good Is Your Limit Hold'em

Re: After SSHE
 

The two most important things you need to do don't include buying another book.

1) Start participating in the micro limit forum on a daily basis, both posting a hand or two you were lost in of your own and give feedback on others hand posts.

2) Play tens of thousand of hands of poker. (Hopefully this will also pay for any books you decide you need.) Don't even contemplate making a 'stat' post unless you have 50k hands since your last major 'Aha!' moment. When we are talking about the long run we mean 100k hands, not 1k.

For books:
Theory of Poker (You will be referencing this for the rest of your life.)
Weighing the Odds in Hold'em
Middle Limit Hold'em (Time to temper that aggression a bit.)
How Good is Your Limit Hold'em

Not much that you need from Hold'em for Advanced Players until maybe 5/10 online or 30/60 live. And even then you might still be better served by looking for tables where you still don't need it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Don't worry, it will eventually be your bible. Just not yet.

Re: After SSHE
 

For online play SSHE it THE book, even up to 20/40 and sometimes beyond. No fooling. You can make a small fortune playing that way online right now.

In B&M games it's a little different, and it depends on where you play, I suppose. It seems that even the fish notice more in person. So perhaps it's THE book for up to 5/10 and sometimes beyond. It still applies but you will have to think more as your opponents are better.

TOP and HEFAP are improtant books in holdem and you should read them. But honestly, if you want to do really well online then re-read SSHE several times until you understand it thoroughly, find yourself playing very well, and are taking down the money.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
In addition to the above, grab How Good is Your Limit Hold'em by Byron Jacobs. You'll be a limit stud in no time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had read this book before I wrote GSIH, I would have recommended it without question in my limit hold 'em section. It's excellent. Best limit hold 'em hand problems book that exists today. Its only problem is that it could/should be twice the length. But it's terrific.

I was particularly impressed because not only is the advice and thought process consistently good, but he asks the right questions. He probes the key areas where people lose most of their money, and his scoring system reflects the fact that he knows these are the most important areas.

I give it 10/10. I think the best limit hold 'em books available today are (not going to be humble about my own):

Beginner level:
Getting Started in Hold 'em by me
Winning Low Limit Hold 'em, 3rd Edition only by Lee Jones
Internet Texas Hold 'em by Matthew Hilger

Intermediate Level:
Small Stakes Hold 'em by me, David, and Mason
Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players by David and Mason
Weighing the Odds in Limit Hold 'em by King Yao
How Good is Your Limit Hold 'em by Jacobs and Brier

I think there's a large falloff after these. In fact, I think I'd recommend an aspiring limit hold 'em player to read these seven and only these seven books... at least only these seven until they've become a strongly winning player.

EDIT: Feeney's book, Inside the Poker Mind, is also excellent, but I wouldn't necessarily clasify it as a "limit hold 'em book." But an aspiring limit hold 'em player certainly should read it as well.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In addition to the above, grab How Good is Your Limit Hold'em by Byron Jacobs. You'll be a limit stud in no time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had read this book before I wrote GSIH, I would have recommended it without question in my limit hold 'em section. It's excellent. Best limit hold 'em hand problems book that exists today. Its only problem is that it could/should be twice the length. But it's terrific.

I was particularly impressed because not only is the advice and thought process consistently good, but he asks the right questions. He probes the key areas where people lose most of their money, and his scoring system reflects the fact that he knows these are the most important areas.

I give it 10/10. I think the best limit hold 'em books available today are (not going to be humble about my own):

Beginner level:
Getting Started in Hold 'em by me
Winning Low Limit Hold 'em, 3rd Edition only by Lee Jones
Internet Texas Hold 'em by Matthew Hilger

Intermediate Level:
Small Stakes Hold 'em by me, David, and Mason
Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players by David and Mason
Weighing the Odds in Limit Hold 'em by King Yao
How Good is Your Limit Hold 'em by Jacobs and Brier

I think there's a large falloff after these. In fact, I think I'd recommend an aspiring limit hold 'em player to read these seven and only these seven books... at least only these seven until they've become a strongly winning player.

EDIT: Feeney's book, Inside the Poker Mind, is also excellent, but I wouldn't necessarily clasify it as a "limit hold 'em book." But an aspiring limit hold 'em player certainly should read it as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Ed. Glad you liked the book, as I just purchased it a couple of days ago.

Just wondering, at what point do you think Feeney's book is best brought in. At intermediate level with SSH?

Also, I noticed you didn't mention Dr Al's book. However, as you included it inside GSIH, I'm assuming it just slipped your mind here Right? If so, is this a book to read alongside the likes of GSIH etc. or would you suggest leaving it until the more advanced stages?

PJS

Re: After SSHE
 

I'd throw Theory of Poker in there as well. It deals with games besides hold'em, but it uses lots of limit hold'em examples.

Have you read Cooke's Play of Hands? If so, why does it not make the Intermediate list?

What about Abdul Jalib's 1999 essays "Preflop Strategy", "Theory of Sucking Out", and "Raising after Loose Limpers"? It's not a book, but he talks about many of the concepts you and Yao later discuss in your books.

Finally, I know why Middle Limit Holdem did not make your list, but do you think it could with some editing out of the weak-tight BS (a la WLLHE 3rd)?

PS Byron Jacobs, author of How Good is Your Limit Holdem, is coming out with a beginner holdem book. Haven't seen it yet, but it's listed on Amazon.

Re: After SSHE
 

I agree, Feeney's book is pretty incredible. What do you think of "The Psychology of Poker"? I give that one a thumbs up as well.
Where would a NL player start if he/she is considering playing limit too? Specifically, a ultra-cool Russian NL player who follows the aggression of SuperSystem?

Re: After SSHE
 

Millers list should keep you busy. If you can honestly intergrate The TOP and HPFAP within 100k hands, I'll be extremely impressed.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
PS Byron Jacobs, author of How Good is Your Limit Holdem, is coming out with a beginner holdem book. Haven't seen it yet, but it's listed on Amazon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. It is out in the UK now. Unfortunately I was a bit slow finishing it and so we have delayed publication in the US until March/April 2006, otherwise it would get lost in the post-Xmas hiatus. Anyone desperate for it can probably pick it up on Amazon.co.uk next week.

Hey Byron
 

Enjoyed HGIYLHE.

Since you know Brier who co-authored Middle Limit Holdem with Ciaffone, why don't you suggest a second edition of MLHE and clean it up. It has the potential to be a great text.

Re: After SSHE
 

I've read HPFAP already. It's got some interesting ideas in it. However, every time I've tried to play limit, I have no clue what the hell is going on. I can't understand people that call all the way to the river with nothing. The guys play such a wide variety of hands, I'm not sure what hands I should be playing and how I should be playing them. I'd like to expand myself and include limit hold em into the games I already play. Perhaps I should start with SSHE?

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've read HPFAP already. It's got some interesting ideas in it. However, every time I've tried to play limit, I have no clue what the hell is going on. I can't understand people that call all the way to the river with nothing. The guys play such a wide variety of hands, I'm not sure what hands I should be playing and how I should be playing them. I'd like to expand myself and include limit hold em into the games I already play. Perhaps I should start with SSHE?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. SSH gives an extensive discussion on why you should play certain hands and not others.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember skimming through Ed Miller's new book, "Getting Started in Hold'em", and I seem to remember that he had book recommendations for continuing your poker education in there.

I don't remember what they are, but it's a place to look.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
If I had read this book before I wrote GSIH, I would have recommended it without question in my limit hold 'em section. It's excellent. Best limit hold 'em hand problems book that exists today. Its only problem is that it could/should be twice the length. But it's terrific.

I was particularly impressed because not only is the advice and thought process consistently good, but he asks the right questions. He probes the key areas where people lose most of their money, and his scoring system reflects the fact that he knows these are the most important areas.

I give it 10/10. I think the best limit hold 'em books available today are (not going to be humble about my own):

Beginner level:
Getting Started in Hold 'em by me
Winning Low Limit Hold 'em, 3rd Edition only by Lee Jones
Internet Texas Hold 'em by Matthew Hilger

Intermediate Level:
Small Stakes Hold 'em by me, David, and Mason
Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players by David and Mason
Weighing the Odds in Limit Hold 'em by King Yao
How Good is Your Limit Hold 'em by Jacobs and Brier

I think there's a large falloff after these. In fact, I think I'd recommend an aspiring limit hold 'em player to read these seven and only these seven books... at least only these seven until they've become a strongly winning player.

EDIT: Feeney's book, Inside the Poker Mind, is also excellent, but I wouldn't necessarily clasify it as a "limit hold 'em book." But an aspiring limit hold 'em player certainly should read it as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a better (more detailed) answer than what he wrote in his own book. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every time I've tried to play limit, I have no clue what the hell is going on. I can't understand people that call all the way to the river with nothing. The guys play such a wide variety of hands, I'm not sure what hands I should be playing and how I should be playing them. Perhaps I should start with SSHE?

[/ QUOTE ]

Long ago, I ran some simulations on Turbo Texas Holdem that were confirmed by Ed's tight game starting hand recommendations in SSHE. Glad to see that they are also verified by the Poker Room stats:

Typically, in limit your bread and butter will be suited cards that add to 20 or 21 if you were playing blackjack, pairs AA-77, and the best offsuit cards (AK-AJ, KQ).

In raised pots, you will need to fold some of the weaker hands in this group, and mostly re-raise with the others. You should not cold call a raise very often.

As your position improves, you can add in AXs, cards that add to 19 suited and ATo + KJo.

In very loose games, you can see the flop from any position with any pair or suited ace.

After 2-3 limpers, suited connectors are getting the right price to call in mid to late position.

In the SB, you can typically complete with any suited hand in a limped pot getting 6:1 or better and offsuit 0-gappers getting 8:1 or better.

Bottom line, you should be seeing the flop about ~15% of the time outside the blinds.

But all that's the easy part. Money is made in limit with your post flop play. There are far more multiway pots and far more turn and river cards seen with betting left in limit than big bet holdem. And to help understand that, you'll need to read the books Ed is talking about.

Re: After SSHE
 

Based on what I've seen, J4o, 10-5o seem to be the best. At least, those are the hands other guys seem to be playing against me whenever I try limit. Oh, and Q6o is another one. In NL, you can chase that crap out preflop, it's impossible in limit when all it costs the guy is another bet.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on what I've seen, J4o, 10-5o seem to be the best. At least, those are the hands other guys seem to be playing against me whenever I try limit. Oh, and Q6o is another one. In NL, you can chase that crap out preflop, it's impossible in limit when all it costs the guy is another bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why the games are profitable. Over time, these guys will be big losers. It is a nightmare when people crack KK with garbage, but as long as you have a bankroll big enough to get you through the bad periods, they will eventually hold up and crush the guys who are chasing you down with their garbage hands.

Besides, when you have a long term advantage, why do you want to chase out Q6 offsuite against your AA anyway. Without calls like this, games wouldn't be so juicy!

Re: After SSHE
 

Why chase them out, so they don't suck out with that garbage. I'll tell you what, although I've not played a lot of limit, every time I have had monster hands like AA, KK, QQ, AKs, they have never won, not one single time.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why chase them out, so they don't suck out with that garbage. I'll tell you what, although I've not played a lot of limit, every time I have had monster hands like AA, KK, QQ, AKs, they have never won, not one single time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is: when you hold AA or KK you want to chase everyone out of the pot and just pick up the blinds [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: After SSHE
 

No, but I do want to reduce the number of opponents and it seems when you raise pre-flop in limit, it encourages people to call.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, but I do want to reduce the number of opponents and it seems when you raise pre-flop in limit, it encourages people to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit Hold'em you are not raising pre flop with big hands to thin the field. You are raising with them because you are pushing your pot equity advantage.

Re: After SSHE
 

"In limit Hold'em you are not raising pre flop with big hands to thin the field. You are raising with them because you are pushing your pot equity advantage."
English please.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
"In limit Hold'em you are not raising pre flop with big hands to thin the field. You are raising with them because you are pushing your pot equity advantage."
English please.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have 5 opponents, if all stay in you're getting 5-1 on your raise. If your hand has odds to win better than that you should be raising. You only have to win with the hand more than 1/6 of the time to be ahead. Or something like that.

Re: After SSHE
 

Too confusing. I'm sticking to NL.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Too confusing. I'm sticking to NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Start reading Small Stakes Hold'em, and you won't need to ask these questions.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: After SSHE
 

Oh, believe me, I will, I'm going to the store today and buying it. Ed should thank me when he gets his next royalty check. I want to see what all the hype is about.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, believe me, I will, I'm going to the store today and buying it. Ed should thank me when he gets his next royalty check. I want to see what all the hype is about.

[/ QUOTE ]

No hype, but from the questions you asked it is clear you do not have a firm grasp of the fundamentals of limit poker. Reading SSHE will help you see the light for sure.

On a side note, although it’s presented as a beginner's book, Getting Started in Hold'em by Ed Miller is also highly recommended for someone with your current skill set. It will help you unlearn your bad habits and misunderstandings of the game (which 95% of all players share, please don't think I'm picking on just you) before turning to SSHE.

Lastly, spend a lot of time in the micro limit forums here asking questions, posting hand histories, etc. It will turn you into a solid player in not time!


TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: After SSHE
 

I don't think I have bad habits, my experience is in NL. Limit is an entirely different beast. A lot of people play limit, therefore I wouldn't mind giving it a try to expand my repitoire.

Re: After SSHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I have bad habits, my experience is in NL. Limit is an entirely different beast. A lot of people play limit, therefore I wouldn't mind giving it a try to expand my repitoire.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what *TT* meant was that sometimes what is good for NL poker can be a bad thing for limit and vice versa (a lot of concepts such as pot odds and position still apply though). I think that what he also meant is that you will have to adjust your mindset/thinking to have success at limit, as they require different strategies.

Anyway, I do agree that you could be better off with GSIH before going on to SSH.

Good luck,
PJS

Re: After SSHE
 

Not to sound snotty at all...but if you don't undertand, start with the books Ed mentions and you will!

---Leavenfish

Re: After SSHE
 

Yo Kinky... You got sooooo hooked up with these recommendations. Don't even bother with anything else. These books should be your curriculum for the next few years.

Re: After SSHE
 

Actually a limit player can learn a great deal from playing no limit

I was strugling at limit play .. (and yes I've both read SSH and ITHE .. but it seemed that I was slowly bleeding try.


No limit hold'em teaches you aggression .. and most of all pushing your edge hard

It also teaches you how to manipulate pot odds ... that game is all about giving opponent wrong pot odds to draw .. and yet only slightly wrong, so that they will be tempted to draw anyway


Needless to say, after returning to limitplay .. I'm not strugling


I hope 2+2 get around to publishing a nolimit holdem for the advanced player book ... Basically what we got to rely on is Harrington volume 1