AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

9 handed, villian ($96) is loose and will raise frequently.
hero ($85)is button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

preflop: villian calls .50, fold, MP calls .50, 3 fold, hero raises to $2, SB calls 1.75, villian re-raises to $5.75, hero calls 4.25, SB calls 4.25

pot ($19.75)

flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB moves all in $1.95, villian raises to $7.25, hero re-raises to $25, villian calls $17.75

total pot ($81.70)

turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

villian moves all in $67, hero has $55 left. call?

i am figuring this to be an immediate call, I would like some feedback, thanks.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

Villian limp re-raised. Has he done this before? Against a sane opponent this is a muck with any non pocket pair.

I would also not have raised two limpers with AJs. I would have snuck into the pot cheap with a limp.

The turn is an instant call given your stack size in relation to the pot and the flop was played fine given the preflop action.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

Villain seems to be representing a monster with the LRR PF. Being loose, he could have any pockets who knows.

His flop raise was weak. Is he trying to take you off your hand or get value for a monster? With the now protected main pot, his raise is really confusing and I have to believe it's for value as opposed to put you off your hand.

When he called your raise to $25 on the flop, you have to figure TPTK isn't scaring him so I think you're toast. That's noting that you did not say "loose, bad", just "loose" about him. You obviously cannot get him to fold out now, so its all reads. I think you're dead to an overpair or a set.

You've only got $50 left into a $130 pot... this is not an instacall, but the pot odds aren't bad. I think you're beat, but I'm not sure i'm 2.6666 : 1 sure and you do have outs.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

Raise more preflop or limp, get out of the middle like this. 2 limpers, $0.50BB, raise to $3. Limp/reraise preflop full table is often a monster hand like AA/KK. I'd keep that in mind on the flop and just call him. You're an underdog to AA and about even against KK.

As played with your flop raise, you look like your willing to invest your stack in this hand and you have to know that that's possible on the turn. So you have to call the less than PSB on the turn.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

the villian was an agressive player and fairly loose, and was limping with some hands OOP. People limp with anything from any position at .25/.50 NL, and if you aren't raising with premium hands on the button after a couple callers, you should really start.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would also not have raised two limpers with AJs. I would have snuck into the pot cheap with a limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with raising your button here. I would argue that you could have raised more.

As played, I call the turn. Against most players, you will be looking at an overpair here, KK or AA and it turns into a math question. Against a maniac who reraises frequently, he has a wider range than that. You may very well be ahead here. If not, you are drawing live to 9 hearts and possibly another 3 aces.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain seems to be representing a monster with the LRR PF. Being loose, he could have any pockets who knows.

His flop raise was weak. Is he trying to take you off your hand or get value for a monster? With the now protected main pot, his raise is really confusing and I have to believe it's for value as opposed to put you off your hand.

When he called your raise to $25 on the flop, you have to figure TPTK isn't scaring him so I think you're toast. That's noting that you did not say "loose, bad", just "loose" about him. You obviously cannot get him to fold out now, so its all reads. I think you're dead to an overpair or a set.

You've only got $50 left into a $130 pot... this is not an instacall, but the pot odds aren't bad. I think you're beat, but I'm not sure i'm 2.6666 : 1 sure and you do have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

he had successfully raised me off of a couple CBs on missed overcards earlier, and I figured he was trying to do the same here. I took into account the limp re-raise, but I figured he would have raised more on the flop with an overpair, trying to make flush draws pay.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
the villian was an agressive player and fairly loose, and was limping with some hands OOP. People limp with anything from any position at .25/.50 NL, and if you aren't raising with premium hands on the button after a couple callers, you should really start.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising AJs in this spot (which is not a premium hand in my mind) is only going to bloat the pot, making it difficult to play a one pair hand properly. Your opponents will be making the same post flop mistakes in smaller pots than they will in larger ones (indeed, these mistakes are highlighted due to the much smaller pot size).

In limit this is a clear raise for value but in no limit there are other more important considerations, notably pot control.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise more preflop or limp, get out of the middle like this. 2 limpers, $0.50BB, raise to $3. Limp/reraise preflop full table is often a monster hand like AA/KK. I'd keep that in mind on the flop and just call him. You're an underdog to AA and about even against KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are we trying to accomplish raising 6BB as opposed to 4BB? Should i be trying to get it head up by driving out the blinds and one of the limpers, or limp behind the limpers and try to play a many handed pot in position? With early limpers, do you usually limp in position with hands like AJs, AQs, KQs and play a multiway pot?

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

Position + betting impetus > pot control, IMO.

2 limpers I agree with the raise. 3 limpers, call.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising AJs in this spot (which is not a premium hand in my mind) is only going to bloat the pot, making it difficult to play a one pair hand properly. Your opponents will be making the same post flop mistakes in smaller pots than they will in larger ones (indeed, these mistakes are highlighted due to the much smaller pot size).

In limit this is a clear raise for value but in no limit there are other more important considerations, notably pot control.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a problem when OOP. Playing one pair hands is much easier when you have position. You will often get better hands to fold to your CB when you bet the flop. If called, you have position the rest of the way.

I think raising here becomes suboptimal if you are noticing people limping in with hands like AQ and AK from early and middle position. Otherwise, it is fine IMO.

results
 

i called, EP flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], hits his backdoor flush and takes down the $186 pot. needless to say, I am on a break at the moment, starting a new file in my notes. gotta love the poka

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
i called, EP flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], hits his backdoor flush and takes down the $186 pot. needless to say, I am on a break at the moment, starting a new file in my notes. gotta love the poka

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not make thinly disguised bad beat posts.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising AJs in this spot (which is not a premium hand in my mind) is only going to bloat the pot, making it difficult to play a one pair hand properly. Your opponents will be making the same post flop mistakes in smaller pots than they will in larger ones (indeed, these mistakes are highlighted due to the much smaller pot size).

In limit this is a clear raise for value but in no limit there are other more important considerations, notably pot control.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a problem when OOP. Playing one pair hands is much easier when you have position. You will often get better hands to fold to your CB when you bet the flop. If called, you have position the rest of the way.

I think raising here becomes suboptimal if you are noticing people limping in with hands like AQ and AK from early and middle position. Otherwise, it is fine IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was the first hand in an hour I had seen AK limp reraised, I thought he might have AK when I called the re-raise, but since we each had over 150BB, +position, I called the extra 4.75.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i called, EP flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], hits his backdoor flush and takes down the $186 pot. needless to say, I am on a break at the moment, starting a new file in my notes. gotta love the poka

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not make thinly disguised bad beat posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

this wasn't a bad-beat post, I got all the feedback I needed about my pre-flop play and turn play, before I posted the results of the hand, which aren't the most important part of the post. in other words, stop being so catty, Kathy

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

allin on the flop.

Even if both villians have overpairs you have over 50% equity here, this should be an autopush if youre raised into here.

Re: results
 

Agreed. This was high content post that led to some interesting discussion, which incidentally ended badly for Hero.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i called, EP flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], hits his backdoor flush and takes down the $186 pot. needless to say, I am on a break at the moment, starting a new file in my notes. gotta love the poka

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not make thinly disguised bad beat posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

KathleenStand
newbie

Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 33

Cleaning up the forum on her first day. vn. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i called, EP flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], hits his backdoor flush and takes down the $186 pot. needless to say, I am on a break at the moment, starting a new file in my notes. gotta love the poka

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not make thinly disguised bad beat posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

this wasn't a bad-beat post, I got all the feedback I needed about my pre-flop play and turn play, before I posted the results of the hand, which aren't the most important part of the post. in other words, stop being so catty, Kathy

[/ QUOTE ]

You posted the results half an hour after the first post. This is a bad beat post with very little strategic content. Good day sir.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
allin on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

all in for 79 bucks? is it usually better to push off a loose raiser, or is it profitable to try and exctract more chips off of a player like that? would an overbet of around $40 be in order, definitely pot committing me no matter what turn card comes? what would have been the optimal line with a potentially large side-pot like that?

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i called, EP flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], hits his backdoor flush and takes down the $186 pot. needless to say, I am on a break at the moment, starting a new file in my notes. gotta love the poka

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not make thinly disguised bad beat posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

this wasn't a bad-beat post, I got all the feedback I needed about my pre-flop play and turn play, before I posted the results of the hand, which aren't the most important part of the post. in other words, stop being so catty, Kathy

[/ QUOTE ]

You posted the results half an hour after the first post. This is a bad beat post with very little strategic content. Good day sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

wuteva...catty kathy! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

You lose value on this hand if the turn comes and villian is ahead of you. Right now you are even money. Villian doesn't hate his hand, so push him in now and hope he calls. If he folds you take his $7. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You lose value on this hand if the turn comes and villian is ahead of you. Right now you are even money. Villian doesn't hate his hand, so push him in now and hope he calls. If he folds you take his $7. Sounds like a good deal to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with a huge overbet now is it's only called by a much better hand. Maybe an overpair (which you don't mind), but more likely only a set or two pair, both of which are favourites against you.

Re: results
 

and it's not like posting the results is going to change any of the discussion of the hand. the posters all have taken bad beats, most of the posters aren't results oriented thinkers, and bad beat or not, there is always something I can learn from a hand history. I don't post hands because of bad beats, and I don't post hands because I want to show some play that makes me look like johnny chan. I say the results of every hand history I post because it is a fun thing to do, no matter what happens.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

Villian limp-reraising preflop and having a set means he has exactly JJ. I sincerely doubt it. More likely he has AA or KK in these situations...I'd push against either of these hands here, as we're getting better than even money if we're called.

I'm not trying to say that OP's flop raise is incorrect or anything, I just personally like pushing here.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You lose value on this hand if the turn comes and villian is ahead of you. Right now you are even money. Villian doesn't hate his hand, so push him in now and hope he calls. If he folds you take his $7. Sounds like a good deal to me.

[/ QUOTE ]


The problem with a huge overbet now is it's only called by a much better hand. Maybe an overpair (which you don't mind), but more likely only a set or two pair, both of which are favourites against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Likelihood villain has a set is close to none. Most don't limp reraise 55 or 77, leaving JJ as the only reasonable hand left. Two pair? Do people you play with frequently make this play with J5, J7? Most villains will have an overpair here, and most will call with an overpair. Considering the dead money in the pot, a push is viable imo.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

Wow villain is super-loose post-flop too huh? I'd buddylist him for sure.

Also, I don't mind how you laid out this hand, or the fact that you took a river beating. You made a good play on an interesting hand and got unlucky so thats that.

Per other posters comments, I think raising PF to cut a field with AJs in position is perfectly fine. I like the raise on the flop as it made draws pay dearly and should have put you in the lead. Given villain's line he did look strong at all points in the hand and looked like he had you beat, but ~2.666:1 pot odds and 9 heart outs plus the bluff-factor made it a close one.

Overall, a pretty interesting post.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

I'd raise to $2.5 preflop. If I believe he has to have aces, I'll just call the flop. Against an aggro player, I almost always reraise that flop. The turn is an instacall. You're not getting correct odds when he has aces, but he doesn't have to have aces here. If he has kings, you made a good call. There's always a chance that you actually have the best hand, and it's catastrophic when he pushes you off so much equity. I'm not saying that you should always convince yourself to call in these spots, but against the player that you described you have to take into account all the times he might not have what a normal player would.

Edit to respond to other posters: It's not a bad beat post, it just had a funny result. Some people are discounting the 2 clean jack outs and and about maybe 1.5 ace outs. Pushing isn't my favorite play here, if you just raise you give yourself the chance to check behind on the turn and perhaps see both cards for a third of the price of pushing. If you want to raise enough to pot commit yourself, that's fine too. There's no turn that's going to really make me want to lay this down, and I don't want to allow myself to fold after putting in so much money. Not raising AJs on the button preflop is weak.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

and there's no way you can push the flop... that's rediculous to bet that much into a small pot.

"only get called by hands that beat you" comes to mind.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

You have 53% equity against KK, QQ. You are about 85/15 against AK. 43/67 against AA You are 30/70 against JJ. What "better" hands are there here? This is a profitable push, as you're getting better than even money from a call. What's not to like?

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

And aren't there only 1 combination of JJ, 3 of AA cause of what you hold. I think there are (6?) of KK, and 12 of AK, making AA and JJ, the hands that are actually ahead, unlikely. This is assuming villain is competent too, at 50 dollar stakes you'll see something totally ridiculous a good percentage of the time.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

You're pushing $78 into a total pot of $27 if you push on the flop as played. The main pot is protected by the all-in player so you're not stealing it if you don't show down the best hand regardless. The flop raiser won't give you action with a worse hand if he's beat, and will be ahead of you in most situations where he can call.

Basically, you fold the hands you want chasing you, and you get action from the hands who are ahead. If villain re-opened the betting on the flop then i'd certainly stick it in with TPTK and a nut FD, but as played a huge overbet isnt going to pay you as a long term move.

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

What I'm saying is that there aren't many hands that are "ahead". If you're commited to calling a push on the turn(which OP obviously was) then why not push when you have the best of it? Why call with possibly the worst of it on the turn?

Re: AJs, flop top pair + flush draw,.25/.50 NL, big pot
 

NOTE: I'm very much a newbie. Someone please correct me if I'm way off here.

I don't see how lautzutao can be terribly wrong here. Bad guy limp-re-raised. In my (very limited) experience, that's AA,KK most of the time. Does he really have 77 here? Again, in my experience, people who limp-re-raise with AA,KK often get married to their hand on flops like this. If you push and he calls, you've both put in 80, and the pot ends up at 188.95, so you've just put in 42% of the pot. If you give him overpairs and monsters to call with,

Board: 5h 7h Jc
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 42.7548 % 42.75% 00.00% { AhJh }
Hand 2: 57.2452 % 57.25% 00.00% { AA-JJ, 77, 55 }

Taking QQo out of the mix brings it down to 60:40 and adding AcKc back in (I cheated and looked at the results) makes it 43:57 again.

There are some other advantages of pushing, too: you don't want to give him any sort of interesting odds on the flop, so I'd probably pot it back at him. Re-potting it would be most of your stack, though, so you're might as well stick the rest in for fold equity, no? Also, if he calls with AA, you'll conveniently be getting exactly the correct odds on your push with the added advantage that he'll think you're a total nutcase and call you down a lot more in the future. If he folds something reasonable, you still get that advantage since the short stack is all-in.

I'm quite the newbie, though .. someone please correct me if I'm way off.

NOTE: I could easily be off by a few percent since the short stack is stealing some of your equity .. I don't think they're stealing a lot of it, though.