River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

Only 14 hands on Button, so not much in the way of a read. From what little I've seen, though, he seems pretty aggressive. He's also been bragging about how he's mainly a MTT table and how well he does on those games, which may or may not be significant.

SB seems loose passive and hasn't done anything to catch my attention yet.

Stacks:
Hero - 54.10
Button - 61.33
SB - 6.50

Prima .25/.50 NL 6-max <font color="blue"> (4 players) </font>
Hero is in BB w/ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: UTG folds, Button <font color="red"> raises to $1.50 </font>, SB calls, Hero calls

($4.50) Flop <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

($4.50) Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets $0.50, Hero calls, Button <font color="red"> raises to $3.50 </font>, SB <font color="red"> raises to $5 (all-in) </font>, Hero calls, Button calls

<font color="green"> At this point I'm thinking that either SB or button caught the straight. If I catch my flush, I'm probably good and I have a gutshot to a bigger straight than what's out there, so I have 12 full outs. I'm getting exactly 3:1 to call SB's 3-bet, so a call is justified. </font>

($19.50) River <font color="blue"> (3 players, 1 all-in) </font>: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets $15, Button <font color="red"> raises to 54.83 (all-in) </font>, Hero.......?

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

fold. And next time don't call a raise with 87s out of position.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
And next time don't call a raise with 87s out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be ridiculous. I make this call 100% of the time. Hero is calling two blinds with a nice suited connector and effective stacks &gt; 100 blinds; easy call.

SpaceAce

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

Yeh pretty easy fold. Nothing wrong with the preflop call.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

I think the pre-flop call is marginal because the SB is shortstacked, and it doesn't sound like Button is going to let you draw cheaply.

While I think that it's possible that he could have put you on a baby flush and decided to bluff the river, it's not very likely. Against a competent player, I think this river is a check / call. You bet into him after the board paired and the third spade fell. What is he raising that you beat? Maybe A-6 or something like that, but doubtful.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeh pretty easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain why?

My own thoughts upon further analysis: While there are several *possible* hands that villain might have that hurt me, most of them seem unlikely given villain's play. AsKs (or other big spades) wouldn't raise on that turn. 33, 44, and JJ are a concern, but 33 and 44 wouldn't raise PF, and it seems likely that any set would have re-raised on the turn, especially since I'd called the original 3-bet. He'd want to isolate the all-in and get me out of the pot in case I was drawing (which I was heh). From villain's play it seems he most likely has a middle PP (99/TT).

Either way, I'm getting 2.5:1 on his all-in bet. I only need to be ahead here 30% of the time to make calling this profitable, and I think that's probably the case.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

I would not be so sure villin didn't raise on the button with 33 or 44. In a short handed game and an unraised pot I might. Also, in my experience, a big raise on the river like this usually means a bigger hand than u have, either the nut flush or full house.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a competent player, I think this river is a check / call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I like this better than what I did.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

I like your play and your reasoning. If villain had any kind of hand here then he clearly mis-played it.

For your river lead I am more in favor of a blocking bet (approx 20% of pot) and thats only if you think villain knows and would recognize a blocking bet.

I hate the question "why would you make this bet when a worse hand folds and you only get called or raised by a better hand?" The answer is that there a lot of players that can't give it up and hope this is a bluff, and instead of a crying call they push. I think this is a clear call.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

Pretty easy fold IMO.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

You will never the see the upside variance for mutliple reasons... most likely you haven't because you jump and run up 3 or 4 buyins... then move to another table... or take a break... and re load with the max... but not the 2-4X buyin you had.... so the other players who have bigger stacks can only double you up, not triple or quad your orginal buy in up....

Lets say you sit down with $200... double up, then make a big win... now you have $600... someone at the table has $950... now if you double through you are up 5 buyins.. sit a while longer take out a few short stacks ($200) and you are on you way.. but if you jump and run... GL,

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
You will never the see the upside variance for mutliple reasons... most likely you haven't because you jump and run up 3 or 4 buyins... then move to another table... or take a break... and re load with the max... but not the 2-4X buyin you had.... so the other players who have bigger stacks can only double you up, not triple or quad your orginal buy in up....

Lets say you sit down with $200... double up, then make a big win... now you have $600... someone at the table has $950... now if you double through you are up 5 buyins.. sit a while longer take out a few short stacks ($200) and you are on you way.. but if you jump and run... GL,

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong thread?

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

I would call this in a second and be happy about it. Your opponent here raised preflop so the only hand to be really concerned about is JJ and you have to imagine that raises again on the turn with such a draw heavy board. He could have AKs, but that would probably bet the flop.

Call the river; if you lose so well.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the question "why would you make this bet when a worse hand folds and you only get called or raised by a better hand?" The answer is that there a lot of players that can't give it up and hope this is a bluff, and instead of a crying call they push. I think this is a clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If 1) worse hands fold and 2) better hands raise, then there is absolutely no reason to bet the river.

You're basically answering "no" to the first part of the question and then pretending like the question is useless even when the answer to both parts is "yes."

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

OP said that this player is aggressive. I assume that J-J, 6-6, 4-4 and 3-3 are all in his hand range here. As are A-x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K-Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and maybe 10-9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

Remember, I'd only seen 14 hands against villain, so my "read" was only a first blush estimate. And it's precisely because he seemed aggressive that his play was so confusing.

I pretty much agree that those cards are in villain's range. But, none of those hands would have played that way, if he was really aggressive.

For what it's worth, villain turned over JJ, and hero said "Huh???" and scratched his head heh.

Guess that just goes to show how worthless "reads" can be sometimes lol.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

The problem is what can he possibly put you on? Are you really going to be bluffing an empty side pot with a missed draw representing a river hand? You've bet out on the second six and the flush and he has said I don't care about either of those possibilities. At best you can hope he has a straight and puts you on three sixes. I don't think you are ahead 30% of the time unless you have a read to tell you that this guy is too stupid to recognise the value of his hands relative to the board and has misplayed his overpair.

As an aside I agree that I would definitely try to avoid this problem by check calling the river.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

Only reason I don't like calling in this situation is SB's stacksize. If SB decides to make a desperation allin bet on this flop, we're effectively sandwiched inbetween him and a preflop raiser. Even on this flop(which is decent for us) I wouldn't feel comfortable calling SB's bet...knowing that I could be calling a rather large raise from villian

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

I know people won't like this, but when I'm playing my A game, I fold this preflop.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

If you're going to be a contrarian, you have to provide an explaination [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

(Yes, I'm trying to pick your brain here)

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

Explanation = hand is not profitable.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only 14 hands on Button, so not much in the way of a read. From what little I've seen, though, he seems pretty aggressive. He's also been bragging about how he's mainly a MTT table and how well he does on those games, which may or may not be significant.

SB seems loose passive and hasn't done anything to catch my attention yet.

Stacks:
Hero - 54.10
Button - 61.33
SB - 6.50

Prima .25/.50 NL 6-max <font color="blue"> (4 players) </font>
Hero is in BB w/ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: UTG folds, Button <font color="red"> raises to $1.50 </font>, SB calls, Hero calls

($4.50) Flop <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

($4.50) Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets $0.50, Hero calls, Button <font color="red"> raises to $3.50 </font>, SB <font color="red"> raises to $5 (all-in) </font>, Hero calls, Button calls

<font color="green"> At this point I'm thinking that either SB or button caught the straight. If I catch my flush, I'm probably good and I have a gutshot to a bigger straight than what's out there, so I have 12 full outs. I'm getting exactly 3:1 to call SB's 3-bet, so a call is justified. </font>

($19.50) River <font color="blue"> (3 players, 1 all-in) </font>: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets $15, Button <font color="red"> raises to 54.83 (all-in) </font>, Hero.......?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to make a snotty reply, but why is this a difficult fold on the river?

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

You just show a lot of strength on river and he is not afraid, therefore, it's easy much for me unless you have particular read on him (yeah some donkey might push AJ here at this level). I usually check the river btw if I go that far.

Re: River makes my flush, but also pairs the board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent here raised preflop so the only hand to be really concerned about is JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and (considering this is a button open-raise at a six-max table), 33, 44, 66, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

SpaceAce