Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I was playing live with a few 2+2ers and after the hand one thought I played it bad. Thoughts?

UTG is a 2+2 and winning player, Late position guy isn't pretty tight/straight forward and won't chase much

9 handed.

UTG raises (2+2er), UTG+1 folds, I 3 bet with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], folded to button who cold calls 3, folded back to UTG who calls.

Flop comes
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I call, button calls.

Turn is
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I raise, button folds, UTG calls.

River is:
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, UTG calls.

MHIG

Yet a good 2+2 tells me later that I misplayed the hand. I'm assuming he wants me to raise the flop. I think UTG put me on Js-Ks and want to bet his AQ, AJ, AT. I felt certain he had an A and felt I had the pockets above. Isn't my way the way to get max value?

Later on the player did say he had an Ace, but who knows.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

dont matter, all metagame here live.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

If you think he has an ace you really should raise the flop. Think about it from his perspective for a minute. By just calling you're representing one of two possibilities. Either you have KK-QQ and want to get to SD cheaply, or you have a set. By rights, the way you played it, the good 2+2'er should've found a fold (probably on the turn if he doesn't have a spade draw) as your hand looks huge.

If you raise the flop your possible holdings is greatly expanded. You could have a flush draw (although raising out the hitchhiker is bad). You could have QQ or KK looking to get a free river/cheap showdown, you could have a set, you could have a smaller ace...you get the idea. Most aggro 2+2'ers are going to 3 bet the small bet street with an ace, and lead the turn. Then you can raise him and make an extra SB by doing so.

If he just calls the flop raise, you can decide if you want to risk giving his 2 outer a free river, i'd probably risk it and let him fire on the river.

lf

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think he has an ace you really should raise the flop. Think about it from his perspective for a minute. By just calling you're representing one of two possibilities. Either you have KK-QQ and want to get to SD cheaply, or you have a set. By rights, the way you played it, the good 2+2'er should've found a fold (probably on the turn if he doesn't have a spade draw) as your hand looks huge.

If you raise the flop your possible holdings is greatly expanded. You could have a flush draw (although raising out the hitchhiker is bad). You could have QQ or KK looking to get a free river/cheap showdown, you could have a set, you could have a smaller ace...you get the idea. Most aggro 2+2'ers are going to 3 bet the small bet street with an ace, and lead the turn. Then you can raise him and make an extra SB by doing so.

If he just calls the flop raise, you can decide if you want to risk giving his 2 outer a free river, i'd probably risk it and let him fire on the river.

lf

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As long as you raise the flop with your good holdings he can never fold an ace here. I would always call this flop with 10-10 and raise the turn if i thought he would fold kk or qq let alone aj or aq

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

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I think UTG put me on Js-Ks and want to bet his AQ, AJ, AT.

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Where do you people come up with this stuff?

-ActionBob

P.S. Raise the flop.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I think UTG put me on Js-Ks and want to bet his AQ, AJ, AT.

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Where do you people come up with this stuff?

-ActionBob

P.S. Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put him on? I thought this came pretty easy hand reading.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

If he had a lesser Ace he's probably just pissed because he paid an extra 2 BBs after he married his hand.

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

b

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think UTG put me on Js-Ks and want to bet his AQ, AJ, AT.

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Where do you people come up with this stuff?

-ActionBob

P.S. Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put him on? I thought this came pretty easy hand reading.

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I'm not putting him on anything. I'm simply amused by the part "I think UTG put me on Js-Ks". Was it the slight twinkle in his left eye and not the right which sent out the precise tell that he put you on exactly KsJs?

-ActionBob

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I think he means JJ-KK not the KsJs.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he means JJ-KK not the KsJs.

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Yeah thats what I thought too. KJs would be written like this after all.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

lol at you for thikning he meant kjs

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Wait, let me get this straight. UTG said he had an ace? You said "who knows"...erm...look at the hand history DUH!!! (this is a joke, i am fully aware this was live)

HAHAHHAHAAHAAA!!!

I dont know how you think someone put you on a hand that early.....strange. Explain....


As is, I think the hand was played fine.



Tex

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think he means JJ-KK not the KsJs.

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Yeah thats what I thought too. KJs would be written like this after all.

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Ahhhhh. Kinda funny now if this is the case. KJs would generally be used for King-Jack suited. And something like JsKs would be used for specifically King-Jack of spades. If one wanted to indicated Jacks thru Kings normally JJ-KK would be used. Thats where I found the original post amusing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-ActionBob

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

My bad, I have made this mistake before and probably will again. I think it was the twinkle.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

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I dont know how you think someone put you on a hand that early.....strange. Explain....

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Because he bet into me.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I was curious why you were specific in KsJs, and not just KsXs....And why would his leading into you make you think he thought you held those precise cards?

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

This is a hand that I would absolutely raise on the flop. I would be cautious of a tight player calling 3 bets cold preflop so in this situation I do not want the him to see the turn cheaply. This would be a good spot to raise and get this hand HU.
Plus if you wait till the turn to pop it, UTG may not pay you off on turn and river if he does not have an A and will only call you if he beats you. I think overall it's a little more deceptive to raise on flop and get him to pay you off in later streets.
With a late position caller in this situation I think it's always best to get this hand HU.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I meant pocket Js and pocket Ks

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

What do you think a tight button cold calls 3 with?

I thought AK, JJ, QQ. After that maybe AQ or TT. I think he folds AJ and 99 and below.

Yes I'm in trouble if he catches a two outter but he doesn't have odds and in a previous hand the board was 249J and he had AQ, 3 handed to flop and one of the guy asked if he would have bet the turn would he (tightie) have called (Q came on river) and he said no because he didn't care for 6 outs in that size pot.

To take it one step further, say UTG checks with his ace, I still get same amount if button calls (likely if he calls flop) and UTG does too.

I think the button folds QQ, JJ, TT if I raise on flop. I think he would probably call 2 cold with AK and AQ and probably fold AJ.

So by not raising the flop, yes I agree with you that UTG (2+2er) would fold to the turn raise without an A but I think he has an A here probably 90-95%. BUT, by not raising and letting button call the only hands I think he would AK, AQ, AJ, we can make button's decision hard on the turn with a raise from UTG (2+2ers) bet, or in turn if UTG checks turn we make it hard for UTG to find a call with anything less than an A when button either calls or raises my turn bet.

The button wouldn't even have odds to call for a 2 outter if he has TT-QQ and he knows this.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think UTG put me on Js-Ks and want to bet his AQ, AJ, AT. I felt certain he had an A and felt I had the pockets above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is about reading hands and perhaps more importantly, reading minds. With respect, your thinking here shows some failings when it comes to reading minds. To be specific, why would UTG want to bet his Ace hand if he felt that you had JJ,QQ, or KK? If he felt that you had any of those hands, he would let you bet and then checkraise your ass.

Of course, he may want to bet out based on other reasons but he is not betting out because he felt that you had KK-JJ b/c after 3 betting preflop, it's a near cinch that you would (and should) bet the flop even if you only held JJ.

Also, I think it's dangerous to "feel certain" that the other guy had an ace when he bet the flop. Reading hands is an exercise that generally occurs by synthesizing several factors over multiple streets. Early on, an action may represent several possible hands. Then, as the play develops, you can rule out certain possible holdings by looking back and analyzing your opponent's play throughout the hand.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Lets just assume its a relatively tight button. Granted I'm not often calling 3 cold, but we need to at least consider the possibility of TT, JJ, AJ, AQ, etc (especially those with a spade). Do you really want to give these hands a chance to (correctly?) call one bet on the flop?

I think you might just be overthinking this a bit especially in a 3 way pot where its almost certainly best to raise your hand here on the flop.

-ActionBob

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think a tight button cold calls 3 with?

I thought AK, JJ, QQ. After that maybe AQ or TT. I think he folds AJ and 99 and below.

Yes I'm in trouble if he catches a two outter but he doesn't have odds and in a previous hand the board was 249J and he had AQ, 3 handed to flop and one of the guy asked if he would have bet the turn would he (tightie) have called (Q came on river) and he said no because he didn't care for 6 outs in that size pot.

To take it one step further, say UTG checks with his ace, I still get same amount if button calls (likely if he calls flop) and UTG does too.

I think the button folds QQ, JJ, TT if I raise on flop. I think he would probably call 2 cold with AK and AQ and probably fold AJ.

So by not raising the flop, yes I agree with you that UTG (2+2er) would fold to the turn raise without an A but I think he has an A here probably 90-95%. BUT, by not raising and letting button call the only hands I think he would AK, AQ, AJ, we can make button's decision hard on the turn with a raise from UTG (2+2ers) bet, or in turn if UTG checks turn we make it hard for UTG to find a call with anything less than an A when button either calls or raises my turn bet.

The button wouldn't even have odds to call for a 2 outter if he has TT-QQ and he knows this.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG that's terrible. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It's a fallacy to believe that UTG has an A 90-95% of the time here. It may be obvious after the turn bet and call but at earlier stage you don't know this. It's great that UTG bets out again AFTER both and you the button calls after you three bet preflop. What if he decides to check the turn?

You would be giving the button a very good price to continue drawing. The flop raise is the absolute best play IMO with this situation. You cannot let the button call cheaply after he cold calls your 3 bet preflop.

I'm surprised that you're a winning player, RED.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Whoops, reread my post. Sounded a little harsh sorry [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I think you're trying to make 1 or 2 more bets at a very high risk to you.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

if you think he put you on JJ-KK you should sigh and call the flop and turn, then pop the river.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

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You cannot let the button call cheaply after he cold calls your 3 bet preflop.

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What had are you putting this 'tight' coldcaller on?

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It's a fallacy to believe that UTG has an A 90-95% of the time here.

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Not if he's played enough with him to get a line on his play.

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I'm surprised that you're a winning player, RED.

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I sure hope this was meant in jest. I think he explained his thoughts fine.

b

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Whoa. Okay. Big difference. looked like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

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It's a fallacy to believe that UTG has an A 90-95% of the time here.

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With the human player reads and after playing with him for many hours I do feel that's the % I would be right on that particle hand. Just that one hand that one instance.

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I'm surprised that you're a winning player, RED.

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I'll just say wow and yippie. I won't really comment on this but I will say this hand is live with player reads that go for many hours on UTG and multiple sessions on the button.

I think I will repeat myself, this is for this one hand, this one instance.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Hi Sid,

"why would UTG want to bet his Ace hand if he felt that you had JJ,QQ, or KK? If he felt that you had any of those hands, he would let you bet and then checkraise your ass."

Couldn't UTG reason that his flop bet into a pre-flop 3-bettor was suspicious? Might not the bet cause the pre-flop 3-bettor to then raise with JJ, QQ, or KK because he wanted to get a free turn card and/or because he felt he had the best hand? From the bettors' standpoint, he'd also welcome the raise because it would probably get rid of the 3rd guy on a draw rich board. That is, he see the best chance of getting rid of hte 3rd player by betting out. I see lots of guy bets out into a pre-flop 3-bettor when they hit their ace on the flop, reasoning that that ace, plus the 3-bet pre-flop means a big pocket pair for their opponent that isn't aces. And they also suspect they'll be raised, particularly if the opponent is aggressive.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Sid,

"why would UTG want to bet his Ace hand if he felt that you had JJ,QQ, or KK? If he felt that you had any of those hands, he would let you bet and then checkraise your ass."

Couldn't UTG reason that his flop bet into a pre-flop 3-bettor was suspicious? Might not the bet cause the pre-flop 3-bettor to then raise with JJ, QQ, or KK because he wanted to get a free turn card and/or because he felt he had the best hand? From the bettors' standpoint, he'd also welcome the raise because it would probably get rid of the 3rd guy on a draw rich board. That is, he see the best chance of getting rid of hte 3rd player by betting out. I see lots of guy bets out into a pre-flop 3-bettor when they hit their ace on the flop, reasoning that that ace, plus the 3-bet pre-flop means a big pocket pair for their opponent that isn't aces. And they also suspect they'll be raised, particularly if the opponent is aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead on with my thoughts.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

The guy could very well bet for all the reasons you state. But I said in my OP that UTG might bet with an ace for a host of reasons including the ones you cite (although IMO, checkraising the flop is the much better play to betting the flop in a 3 way pot. There may well be plays better than checkraising the flop as well but a flop CR beats a flop bet in a 3 way pot. Things get a little murky in a 5 or 6 way pot as now you want to limit the field and a raise from your left assists in this regard. Also the flop 3 bettor with JJ-KK may not bet the flop in a 5 or 6 way pot etc etc...man, that was a long digression...anyway, back to the point...).

But the UTG's reasons to bet the flop don't typically include "I have an ace. Red three bet before the flop and he therefore probably has JJ-KK. I better bet because he might easily check."

That's how I interpreted the OP's thought process. That I don't agree with.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

There are many more combos I 3 bet without an ace than with preflop from an UTG and me also being in early position.

(From UTG standpoint) I think check/raising this flop with AJ isn't a good play if the button calls the flop bet, as he likely has a strong hand. I'd rather check/call and bet the turn if you want to check and button calls. if button drops, I could then buy into a check/raise and fold to a raise on the turn from RED.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I'm surprised that neither of you two wise chaps mentioned that the primary goal in this hand is to extricate the button and hero should proceed as such. Who cares about UTG -- hero is WAWB of UTG, imo.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

sometimes pop flop, sometimes don't. i don't think it matters all that much either way.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Actually, in a 3 way pot, my goal if I were UTG and had AK would not be to extricate the button. I want him in for the ride preferrably to the river. Of course, I want him out if he has more than 8 outs but that's just a pipedream because he will never drop a draw that big. The usual scenario where the button gets extricated by a bet and raise is if he has a 2,3, 4, or 5 outer. But in fact, I want him in with those hands on a pot of this size. So, I let Red bet, button calls or raises and I then either 3 bet/raise or raise/coldcall. Both oppoents collectively are now putting in a total of at least 4 bets on the flop when I have much the best of it facing say 7 bad cards on turn and river i.e. Red has 2 outs twice and button has 5 outs twice.

IMO, limiting the field is a concept that is important but is given too much emphasis on these boards.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Thanks for the response skp.

I probably shouldn't have posted under your post. I was replying from the perspective of OP not if I were UTG. I would want it Hu with UTG. Difficult to say if that's best achieved with a flop raise or turn raise - depends on Button's hand and tendencies. But since I don't know either, I'm usually raising the flop to get it hu with a likely badly dominated UTG hand.

If you just call the flop you're giving button 12.5:1. That's exactly the odds he needs I believe to chase any pair. If he has a pair that could make a runner runner straight or flush, and
1. he would call two on the turn once picking up that straight/flush draw or
2. utg doesn't bet the turn and he gets to see the river for 1 bet
- you're losing money letting him in on the flop (if my math is right).

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I hate it when both PokerBob and ActionBob reply to a thread. I get so confused. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

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I probably shouldn't have posted under your post. I was replying from the perspective of OP not if I were UTG. I would want it Hu with UTG.

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Actually, the fault is mine. I thought you were talking from UTG's perspective but a reread of your first post clearly indicates that you were talking from Red's perspective. My bad.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, in a 3 way pot, my goal if I were UTG and had AK would not be to extricate the button. I want him in for the ride preferrably to the river. Of course, I want him out if he has more than 8 outs but that's just a pipedream because he will never drop a draw that big. The usual scenario where the button gets extricated by a bet and raise is if he has a 2,3, 4, or 5 outer. But in fact, I want him in with those hands on a pot of this size. So, I let Red bet, button calls or raises and I then either 3 bet/raise or raise/coldcall. Both oppoents collectively are now putting in a total of at least 4 bets on the flop when I have much the best of it facing say 7 bad cards on turn and river i.e. Red has 2 outs twice and button has 5 outs twice.

IMO, limiting the field is a concept that is important but is given too much emphasis on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said if UTG has AK or AA. But I don't agree if he has AJ or AQ as I don't want to get 3 bet on flop or raised on turn.