Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

To those of you don't know this is a serious response to This Thread. I was gonna put it there but then the mods locked it. I thought about it and thought that pehaps a good discussion could come from what I have to say here. MODS if this thread deteriorates then by all means lock it. I don't like starting posts unless I think something good will come of them and that's why I made this one, but if it goes to a NC thread then I would be the first to promote locking it. Some may think this should be in the zoo or Poker Theory (and it probably should) but since micro's is my home and micros is where the original post was made I think it's appropriate here.

To all who promoted that fish should not be told about 2+2 I bring only one argument. To get good at this game you have to have the discipline and drive to become good at it. We like to pretend we are in some secret society here, with our own lingo, and that's what makes us winning players. That is just not the case, the one thing that seperates winning players and fish in this game is the unending desire to improve their game. The fish may say they want to do better or make money, but it is denial. As Schoonmaker discusses in "Psychology Of Poker" this game and the whole gambling industry is built on denial. The people who really want to improve their game, will improve their game (probably at least passing through here in the process). The fish will deny they are lossers or think reading one book makes them gods. We (should) all know this game is not easy and is not a get rich quick scheme. I wonder how many 2+2 accounts have been started and gotten in about 50-100 posts and then abandoned. Any fish who comes here and doesn't want to become a winner will not last long, or will not improve much; and the ones who do want to become winners will eventually improve because if they have the drive and determination it doesn't matter if we tell them or not they will find a way to get better. That's what winners do to stay winners. Just about every poker book I've read references 2+2 publishing and most say this is the top forum for strategy disscussion. Yet still there are plenty of fish for us all. The only thing that wories me is the fish that would stay fish but find their way here, realize how hard this game is, and quit poker cause they don't have that drive. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just trying to point out that bad players are not bad because they don't post here, or don't know here exists, or don't read poker books, their bad because deep down they don't want to get better. The ones who want to get better will, by whatever means they can, and that may lead them here it may not.
I assume all of us are here to get better, and that's what I want to see. We have some great minds here and many of us work very hard at this game. But we must remember we're not winners because we post at 2+2, but rather we post at 2+2 because we want to be winners. So damn it stand up and be winners people. This game is hard, but we're all here to improve, and help eachother out. Find what you want to do with this game and put every ounce of energy you can spare into that goal. We all have what it takes, but do we have the drive to develop it. Let's kick some a** and play some poker. I want to sit at the table and fear all of you, and I want to be good enough that you fear me when I sit at your table.
"You are not unique snowflakes", but you can make yourself into winning players. So do it, and stop complaining about things that "in the long run" mean nothing.
Maybe I just wanted to start where I did, so that I could lead into a Tyler Durden motivational speech. Maybe I just needed to hear that speech myself. Maybe some of you do too. Maybe this thread is worthless in which case I appologize for wasting the readers time and the Mod's time to lock it.

Thanks for listening guys
Thomas

PS. Edit because I forgot: Thank all of you for helping me work at this game and become a winning player thanks to your help and encouragement. More than anything that's what this post was meant to show, was my appreciation for you guys esspescially the ML crowd for showing me how hard this game is but encouraging me to keep pushing, even if you don't know you helped me and I appreciate it

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

Amen

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

I want to chime in with something here. We have no 'right' to the information that we find here at 2+2. It is not 'ours', to be protected from other people. I believe that the more people who read books and become better players, the better it is for us. Because the vast majority of people who read poker books only improve their game a fraction. It takes serious study to understand this stuff. But that fraction that they improve may enable them to stay in the game longer and get more enjoyment out of it. A heavy loser might turn into a slight loser and stay in the game for a far longer period. Which is great for us.

My two cents.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

nh.

I think your analysis of fish is dead on the (dead) money. My best friend, I spotted him $100 to get started bonus whoring. Basiclly cleared the first $100 and said "here, go forth and prosper". Moran is broke after 2 months. I said, go buy SSHE and play smart. It's like he doesn't want to win.

I think that is what the majority of the players we are playing against mantality (sp?) is. They want to win, but don't want to have to try to. Let em come and lurk.

We are all here to help. If someone wants to get better, they will. If they don't want it, they wont. Poker is a complex game, and to get really good at it, you have to put the time in and do the work.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to chime in with something here. We have no 'right' to the information that we find here at 2+2. It is not 'ours', to be protected from other people. I believe that the more people who read books and become better players, the better it is for us. Because the vast majority of people who read poker books only improve their game a fraction. It takes serious study to understand this stuff. But that fraction that they improve may enable them to stay in the game longer and get more enjoyment out of it. A heavy loser might turn into a slight loser and stay in the game for a far longer period. Which is great for us.

My two cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least worth 4 cents but I'm not sure of the exchange rate. Good point and a good expansion on my thoughts to about players becoming marginally better

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm not gonna lock it, though it does seem more suited for the zoo than here. (If you want me to move it there, let me know.)

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm not gonna lock it, though it does seem more suited for the zoo than here. (If you want me to move it there, let me know.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of (x-posting) it there as well. I want to leave it here as well cause I mainly wrote it to encourage and make people think here in the micros, since this is where I learned most and you guys are my homeboys.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

Bravo -
I still have a few posts to go to make it past your 100 post marker. I opened my account here years ago but never really used it until the past month. I've learned far more in a month here than in the past two years just occasionally reading books on my own. My next step is the sessiion review you set up. The same way you have older vetrans to thank for your learning I expect I'll have you to thank for mine. And if all goes well maybe I'll help someone else someday.
And so it goes...

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

ill share w/ you my tiny sample size. ive sent the 2+2 link to 4 of my friends who play online or who i play w/ in a home game and none of them have registered.

i became friendly w/ a guy in a B&M and told him about the site. he registered and posted about 5 times and then stopped.

all the bad players know there are books at the book store on how to play. most just choose not to go read them. im w/ you nomad, tell all the bad players about this site. it doesnt bother me.

finding out about this site is the easy part. it's the hours of freakin reading that's a pain. it comes down to motivation.

btw more paragraph breaks would make the original post so much easier to read.

bwana

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

yeah i talk to my friends about some poker theory crap. we all watch poker on tv, and when i see someone make a glaringly obvious bad play, i say something about it. most of the time, though, they just say, "well the other guy had XX.. it can't be that bad dude - he folded to the bet"

HAY GUYS THEY DONT KNOW EACHOTHERS CARDS.

roflroflrofl

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
ill share w/ you my tiny sample size. ive sent the 2+2 link to 4 of my friends who play online or who i play w/ in a home game and none of them have registered.

i became friendly w/ a guy in a B&M and told him about the site. he registered and posted about 5 times and then stopped.

all the bad players know there are books at the book store on how to play. most just choose not to go read them. im w/ you nomad, tell all the bad players about this site. it doesnt bother me.

finding out about this site is the easy part. it's the hours of freakin reading that's a pain. it comes down to motivation.

btw more paragraph breaks would make the original post so much easier to read.

bwana

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I have 2 friends and my boss that are in this group they know about it and I keep pushing them to work on their game but that's too much work for them. One acctually lives off his Party SnG winnings (because he's just good enough to whip those fish, but if he wants to make a living at it there's bigger fish), but both my freinds spend time in OOT for "hot chick" threads but the strategy is to much work it seems.
I'll break paragraphs when you start capitalizing the start of sentences and "I" when used as a personal pronoun.
J/K [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the response I think we all have a freind or 2 who wants us to give them an easy way then when they come to realize how much work it is they don't want to keep it up.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

Even if you educate one fish in 100 fishes. it's still one less fish and less money to go into my poket.

If im a boss of a business, i won't tell them they can get a better deal by going to XXXXXX.

i will never discuss 2+2, PT, PA or any strategys openly in a chat.

However, saying "2+2" in chat wont make a MAJOR difference... but hey... one less fish... is one less fish.

And they will probably be extinct one day, so i won't speed up this process without a dam good reason($$$).

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll break paragraphs when you start capitalizing the start of sentences and "I" when used as a personal pronoun.
J/K

[/ QUOTE ]

snap [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bwana

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
i will never discuss 2+2, PT, PA or any strategys openly in a chat.


[/ QUOTE ]

Neither will I and I never have. I'm saying that 1 in 100 would find their way to become winners anyways, because the only ones who will learn from an education are those who want to do better.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[quote(because he's just good enough to whip those fish, but if he wants to make a living at it there's bigger fish)

[/ QUOTE ]

"There's always a bigger fish" - Star Wars Episode I

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

Yeah your right to a certain extent.

I played on a site with NILBUD(Hes a member here, Prob seen him post in micros in the past).

We played often on a site unsupported by PA/PT etc. Manual reads/notes. Small site(about 4k players).

At 0.05/.10 level. Quite alot of fish, i made 20 - 40BB a day logging maybe 300 - 400hands(Super soft games).

I recognised him as a good player and it seemed like he may be a 2+2 like myself. I found it when i lost $6 at 0.02/.04 and wanted to improve so i hit google with "poker forum".

Anyhow in the end out of all the fish on the site only us two seemed to really win/Play well and win longterm. We got chatting and spoke on msn, we never discused 2+2 in chat so soon as we chatted i asked. he was a 2+2er.

We both found it because we wanted to learn the game to a higher level and improve, the others are still fish. One lady i talk to cashes in $50 a month to play 0.05/.10.... Doesn't want to improve. Pure fun for her really.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

I think it's basically just bad to remind people or suggest to people that there's skill to this game

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

I don't care if they come here or not. I'll beat 'em either way.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

(sigh)
Another thread about not educating the fish in the chat window. There are 57,000+ people on PP right now. My guess is 50,000 are fish. Spend more time studying poker and less time worrying about someone educating a few fish.

Flame away.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care if they come here or not. I'll beat 'em either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep

if you can't then maybe "you"(not Grunch) should spend more time worrying about your game, not whether a few bad players make their way here(most new posters are bad anyway, most of us that are winning now were at some point)

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

Poker is a -EV game due to rake. You only win because you take money from people (fish as you say) who make bad decisions. How can trying to make a player a better poker player help? If the number of fish was infinity, then I wouldn't care. But because it's not one less bad player is still one less bad player! And that is totally -ev for me. If you wanna play with better players move up limits or play only at the 2+2 tables.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

I'm grateful for the SS forum...I know when I up against a 2+2 I can sit back and wait till the river to cr [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
(sigh)
Another thread about not educating the fish in the chat window. There are 57,000+ people on PP right now. My guess is 50,000 are fish. Spend more time studying poker and less time worrying about someone educating a few fish.

Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

was this a joke? i hope so....

do most people actually learn?
 

Let me add a little bit of thought from the point of view of a prof ... just because you tell someone where they can learn information, in no way means they learn it.

The number of answers on exams which have a few key words ... applied completely out of context ... is large.

This likely applies here too ... i do not think we need to assume that someone reading 2+2 makes them any better, and in fact, there are likely a large number of people that either become worse because they think they know what they are doing, or spend a awfully large sum of money trying to learn ... money they wouldn't have spent if they thought they couldn't win.

Further ... everytime we direct someone to bonuswhores or some other thread, that increases the money they play with ... this is good for us.

just my 0.02

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

I agree with you in part. I have no problems telling people about 2+2 in person because, really, they probably won't put in the work. However, mentioning 2+2 at the table is STILL a bad idea. You don't want anyone at the table to actually think you're a good player. They may start playing better against you (either by bluffing more, or by folding more, typically), or worse yet, leave. There's no harm in talking up this board at any other time, however.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't want anyone at the table to actually think you're a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I just wanted to start where I did, so that I could lead into a Tyler Durden motivational speech.

[/ QUOTE ]
We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Fish knowing about 2+2: don't care.

Fish being told at table about 2+2: means exactly the same thing as when another fish types "YOU PLAYED THAT CRAP? RIVER SUCKOUT NH FISH." Neither is acceptable.

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that wories me is the fish that would stay fish but find their way here, realize how hard this game is, and quit poker cause they don't have that drive.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the real issue.

Fish start playing because the message the media has presented is: anyone can win with any two cards; experience not necessary. It started with Chris Moneymaker, continued with Gus Hansen cleaning up in the WPT, and should be helped along by this year's WSOP, featuring that bowler who wasn't even in Vegas for poker, and Joe Hachem's 7.5-million-winning hand of 7-3 offsuit.

Tons of people believe poker is a game of intuition (I admit to having believed that myself). To shatter that myth is to derail the gravy train. I don't think that'll happen any time soon, but I don't want to do anything to help it along, either.

All people need to know is that I got lucky. The hard work will be my secret.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
To all who promoted that fish should not be told about 2+2 I bring only one argument. To get good at this game you have to have the discipline and drive to become good at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s true, but I don't see that as a reason to excuse bad etiquette at a table.

Giving advice to weaker players will annoy the better players at the table. You are bound to make them dislike you.

At the same time, most recreational players want to have a little fun without receiving unsolicited lessons from some know-it-all about how they can improve their game or increase their poker knowledge. They are likely to resent what they may correctly or incorrectly interpret as your superior attitude.

Most recreational players know the odds are good they will lose money. They want to play anyway. They didn't come to the table to go to school.

Further, if they employ any of your advice successfully, they will likely credit themselves for their own efforts. If they employ your advice and are in any way unsuccessful, they will likely blame you. You lose either way.

If you want to make friends at a table, have a good time, and contribute to others at the table having a good time, giving advice is not usually the best way to go. Showing a little empathy if they complain about losing a pot they expected to win, or engaging in a little friendly chat about something other than the way they play, is far more likely to win you friends and add to the enjoyment of everyone at the table.

More than once I've chatted with players who lost a bunch at a table, and when they or I leave, we've parted with cheerful and warm regards. The couple of times I've seen one of them again, they've greeted me and sounded genuinely pleased to see me. Has that ever happened with someone you gave poker advice to?

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I have 2 friends and my boss that are in this group they know about it and I keep pushing them to work on their game but that's too much work for them. One acctually lives off his Party SnG winnings (because he's just good enough to whip those fish, but if he wants to make a living at it there's bigger fish), but both my freinds spend time in OOT for "hot chick" threads but the strategy is to much work it seems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother trying to push anyone to play poker better? If a person can't motivate himself to do this, it's a waste of time and energy.

I bet you are really enthusiastic about poker, but plenty of people don't care to hear about. Sure, you can talk about it to them to get their chops wet, if you want to get a home game going or something.

Oh, btw, Malmuth thinks it's a bad idea to discuss strategy at the table. I would think that this would include talking about internet forums, etc.

I think you should just keep quiet and play. It's either -EV or 0 EV...definitely not +EV.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
Joe Hachem's 7.5-million-winning hand of 7-3 offsuit

[/ QUOTE ]

a hand he played pretty well with a massive chip lead, don't you think?

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

I'll never type a word into the chat window, let alone to talk about poker or improving your game.

The fewer people that notice me, the better.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

No player chat. I don't know if someone on my table talks about 2p2 and I don't care.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Joe Hachem's 7.5-million-winning hand of 7-3 offsuit

[/ QUOTE ]

a hand he played pretty well with a massive chip lead, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
The hand itself, in context, was fine, capitalizing on Danneman's small preflop raise, then flopping a straight and capitalizing on Danneman having snagged top pair/OESD.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

For the most part, people who want to get better at poker will find 2+2, and for people who don't really care to get better, finding 2+2 won't matter much.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

*grunching*

Standard, nice hand.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

I agree that its stupid to try to keep this place a secret. If someone really wants to get better they would look for any poker book, and they'd find www.twoplustwo.com written on the backs of half of them.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i will never discuss 2+2, PT, PA or any strategys openly in a chat.


[/ QUOTE ]

Neither will I and I never have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not advocating for telling everyone. Some of you seem to have gotten that wrong. I was merely using it as a starting point for a motivational statement of hey you guys found 2+2 by whatever means so use it to the best of your ability. Stop worrying about fish who find this or any other poker education. If others are dumb enough to tell people about how to play at the tables that is a loss indeed but the ones who want to suceed will.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content
 

Most of the people who want to get better are playing NL anyway IMO, and haven't realized that limit is the way to go. That's where I started anyway.

Cheers,
Steve

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

I sympathize with the OP; however, I think he seeks to close the gate after the cow has left the pasture.

While the interest in poker continues to spread, sites like this one may not have an unduly negative impact on one's EV. At some point, however, the current almost geometric increase in the player base will slow. The easily understood and almost mechanical nature of opening play will be common knowledge; and with correct opening practice, the incidence of egregious errors in the later phases of the game will be both more rare, and more difficult to exploit.

This will seem improbable to the majority of posters here, as the large number of denials answering this listing attests. I have had direct experience in this procedure which I would like to share with you. In the late '80s, I began playing the horses, and utilized a methodology based upon FPS (feet per sec.) measurements compounded into ratings of various sorts. This method was new, very new, and while it had created a lot of stir among the betting coterie, it was protected by its relative difficulty, in relation to other analytical methodologies, and its dependence on computing, as the equations were sufficiently laborious to calculate, that without a programmatic assist, they just wouldnt be effective as a tool to handicap.

To make a long story short, I both knew computing methods, and was adept at implementing dbased modeling strategies, which was pivotal in this kind of handicapping, and made a LOT of money very quickly using the approach. The money I won, I in turn applied to football wagering. After making quite a nice nut, I quit playing either sport, believing that the strategy would be available to me if and when I needed to restore my exhausted funds.

I was wrong. The philosophy of pace, which was the methodology I had used, had penetrated the awareness of even the most obtuse horse player. Even the saddest lackwits now investigates splits to determine if speed ratings, a now public datum posted on every horse for every race he has ever run, were assisted or betrayed by the very slow or very fast fractions he had encountered in his race.

Value had eroded as a consequence. Where formerly I realized an ROI of +.85 (!), when I returned to the game, I was making +.10 on my invested capital. Margins for error had become much, much smaller, obviously.

And I can absolutely assure you, the same process, dessimination of knowledge, it's absorption into the wagering consciousness of even the most irresponsible player, and a consequent erosion of the expectation of the sharper player's game, will inevitably occur.

My advice to the readers here is direct: poker playing is NOT a stock market, where some underlying business props up the value in stock prices, which can expand with seemingly infinite limit. Once the proper methodology of poker playing becomes part of the psyche of the ordinary player, the profitability will plunge, and the game will cease to offer the windfall it now does. Make your money NOW; expect to see your edge dissipate altogether, if you're mostly untalented, and be severely impacted if you're blessed with more than ordinary abilities. Because it WILL happen. It's happened in financial markets, in chess, in backgammon, in horse and sports betting. And it's a measure of willfulness, I think, to deny that it will happen in poker playing.

Re: Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
The easily understood and almost mechanical nature of opening play will be common knowledge; and with correct opening practice, the incidence of egregious errors in the later phases of the game will be both more rare, and more difficult to exploit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct preflop play has nothing to do with correct postflop play. Your average player is never going to be a tight aggressive and preflop charts only teach you so much. You'll never convince them to read the rest of the book.

A solid player knows how to adapt and can make a lot of money from "mechanical" players.