you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

Had this happen to me in a limit game I was playing. Posted this question in the limit forum. Let's see how the result changes in NL.

The guy who's sitting to my right UTG+1 looks at his cards by flipping up the corners, and I see that he has Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He doesn't know that I've seen his cards.

I have T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

We're playing 5/10 NL, and we each have $1000. He opens for $50. The table is fairly loose and if I call I'll probably get another couple callers. If I raise him we'll be heads up unless someone wakes up with AK-KK-AA.

What's my move?

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

Raise would be good if stacks were deeper but with 100BB it will leave with too little room to exploit your advantage.

Best wishes

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

Easy call.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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Easy call.

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My vote as well. Obviously, if you knew you'd be heads up, calling would be right, since you'll destroy this guy whether you outflop him or not. It's worth the risk of letting others into the pot, since your situation is too good to pass up for $50, but you can't take the chance of opening it up for the QQ to reraise and get committed. Call and hope nobody else does, but realize that you'll have a lot of leverage even if there are callers.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

I would call with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] if I knew such information.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

Can't raise because you'll not have the room to manouver. Will never get stacked and will take the pot on a wide variety of flops. Easy call.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

call and i don't hesitate. does the answer change if he were holding KK or AA? i don't think it does.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

Call or raise. I'd be somewhat reluctant to just call because the table is loose and I don't really want to play T8s out of position into a bunch of people who could hold anything. I'd raise if I think he's capable of folding QQ on certain flops. If he's a loose bad player who won't drop QQ no matter what, I may even fold.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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If he's a loose bad player who won't drop QQ no matter what, I may even fold.



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i am not playing this hand to get him to fold. thats the beauty of knowing what he has you either hit the flop big and break him or fold and lose a few bets before the flop. basically i am calling his preflop bet for a chance to take his whole stack.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

I don't think T8s breaks QQ often enough to make it worthwhile with these stacks if he won't fold regardless.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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i am not playing this hand to get him to fold.

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But that's a huge part of the reason why calling here is a good play.

A or K flops about 1/3 of the time... most people are pretty easy to push off their hand at that point.

My intuition tells me that it's much move +EV when facing QQ here than KK/AA, because you still stack them just about as often when you improve, but you also get some good flops that make it real easy to push them off when you're behind.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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I don't think T8s breaks QQ often enough to make it worthwhile with these stacks if he won't fold regardless.

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help me understand. you are leaning more towards raising which just inflates the pot with a hand that you say doesn't break QQ enough to make it worthwhile with these stacks?

why not keep the pot small and try to hit two pair, some kind of big draw, etc? i didn't pay attention to table position, is it the rest of the table that bothers you b/c personally i would rather the other players bloat the pot instead of myself when holding a hand like a suited one-gapper.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

I would raise against a 2+2 player, because I could get heads-up and possibly make him fold on a A/K-high flop. I would call if the players behind are bad or passive. I would fold if the table is loose and doesn't like to fold.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

your not very nice....i would fold. be honest, the integrity of the game is on the line, wheres the honesty in poker

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

this is an ethical question as well--obviously calling is best but is it ethical? Isn't this cheating?

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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this is an ethical question as well--obviously calling is best but is it ethical? Isn't this cheating?

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im pretty sure the focus of this thread is NOT about the ethics of this, but on a purely strategical view.

if you want to discuss the ethics of this, post it in B&M or something.

i think i call here.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

i just dont see why this was originally posted if the basis is purely strategical...its such an obvious call.......you will have a tremendous postflop advantage that folding would be retarded.....

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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this is an ethical question as well--obviously calling is best but is it ethical? Isn't this cheating?

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if he blantently flashed his cards (meaning i wasnt leaning over and caught a look on accident), then i would continue playing the hand with the info and a hand or two later ,if he was still flashing his cards id say something about it.)

if he keeps doing it after that, well, he sure be more careful.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

strategy view, EASY call, withe the stack sizes I don't raises unless he's the type of player that if I reraise he'll just call, and on any Axx Kxx or Jxx flop I'll take it away.

on the ethical part, I play a live limit game 10/20 a lot, and there is actually a "lot of card flashing." Due to players being drunk or just not caring. If someone is drunk and having a good time, and bringing that up would make them "come back down to earth" I just won't look and not tell them. If they're someone I don't like (about 2 in the game usually) I just cheat (yes I know it's unethical, but I detest these 2 so much, if they dropped there wallet I would take the money and give it to a homeless person, (returning the DL and credit cards etc.) If it's vs. a normal accidental card flasher I would just quitely tell them once, if they do it again, I would take full advantage of it.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

Im never folding... Depending how well I know the player its either a very close call, a very easy call, or a very easy raise.

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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i just dont see why this was originally posted if the basis is purely strategical...its such an obvious call.......you will have a tremendous postflop advantage that folding would be retarded.....

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then the decision is between calling/raising

Re: you see that the preflop raiser has QQ. You have T8s. You...
 

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i just dont see why this was originally posted if the basis is purely strategical...its such an obvious call.......you will have a tremendous postflop advantage that folding would be retarded.....

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then the decision is between calling/raising

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Remember, this could well be 4-way with a marginal hand, so position might merit a fold.

Raising is also worth considering. I think raise is clearly superior to call if he's got JJ, for instance.