Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

The game is 200 PLO8 at party. My stack is 200 the same as everyone else in the hand.

I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the small blind.

2 callers from middle position, cut-off min raises, I call, BB calls, the 2 original callers call his min raise, 5 see the flop.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](19 in the middle)

I am first to act and check, everyone checks right behind me.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](19 in the middle)

Hero ?

Ill post results later, just want some opinions before I post them.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

I easily fold this preflop. You have no real low draw and QQ qith no suits, being OOP to a raise. Yes, it's a minraise, but your hand still sucks. And if someone behind you raises, you cannot continue in the hand regardless. So I think that's a somewhat medium mistake calling this pf.

You hit your money card on the turn, but you can't really like any card except a J-7-5-Q on the river. Only a deuce does not enable a straight on the river. Someting like A46x or A368 is very possible. KTxx is less likely unless they have two paints to go with it or A2/A3/A4s. You're a coinflip with a lot of hands with a flush draw/OESD, 3-1 favorite over nut flush w/ non-straight low draws. You can pot this, but be ready to fold this on a bad river if there are multiple calls to your turn bet.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I easily fold this preflop. You have no real low draw and QQ qith no suits, being OOP to a raise. Yes, it's a minraise, but your hand still sucks. And if someone behind you raises, you cannot continue in the hand regardless. So I think that's a somewhat medium mistake calling this pf.

You hit your money card on the turn, but you can't really like any card except a J-7-5-Q on the river. Only a deuce does not enable a straight on the river. Someting like A46x or A368 is very possible. KTxx is less likely unless they have two paints to go with it or A2/A3/A4s. You're a coinflip with a lot of hands with a flush draw/OESD, 3-1 favorite over nut flush w/ non-straight low draws. You can pot this, but be ready to fold this on a bad river if there are multiple calls to your turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I checked hoping to pot raise anyone that tried to pick it up. Well it got checked through once again.

River 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero ?

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

Check-fold; you have to assume somebody has quads.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

That's a [censored] horrible spot to check. There are a mega bazillion draws out there, some of which will pay you now but not on a board pairing or high river, all of which you're giving a free card to. Only check raise in these spots when you're 100% certain someone will bet. That usually only happens when you're up against a maniac, a preflop raiser following through on the flop, or a nice coordinated board for which you hold the nuts.

On the river make it $5 and pray someone has something to raise you with. It's a pretty [censored] board for most hands, there are no straights, no flushes, no lows...

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's a [censored] horrible spot to check. There are a mega bazillion draws out there, some of which will pay you now but not on a board pairing or high river, all of which you're giving a free card to. Only check raise in these spots when you're 100% certain someone will bet. That usually only happens when you're up against a maniac, a preflop raiser following through on the flop, or a nice coordinated board for which you hold the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well a guy raised preflop, sort of, and 4 people were behind me and 2 had shown a bit of aggression in previous hands. I just couldnt believe it got checked through. Thats what made this hand so funny and pretty much worth posting.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

What precisely are people betting with here? It's a board of gutshots, low draws, maybe an OESD, maybe a flush draw. It's scary spot to bet for virtually any holding.

Contrast this with:

3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

where you could expect a bet from a lot of holdings.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

What precisely are people betting with here? It's a board of gutshots, low draws, maybe an OESD, maybe a flush draw. It's scary spot to bet for virtually any holding.

Contrast this with:

3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

where you could expect a bet from a lot of holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

20 bucks in the middle everyone checked the flop, I was thinking maybe someone would take a stab at it. I guess not, I screwed up this hand pretty badly. Also what do you think of checking the river?

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's a [censored] horrible spot to check. There are a mega bazillion draws out there, some of which will pay you now but not on a board pairing or high river, all of which you're giving a free card to. Only check raise in these spots when you're 100% certain someone will bet. That usually only happens when you're up against a maniac, a preflop raiser following through on the flop, or a nice coordinated board for which you hold the nuts.

On the river make it $5 and pray someone has something to raise you with. It's a pretty [censored] board for most hands, there are no straights, no flushes, no lows...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this completely. Terrible spot to go for a check raise.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

As stupid as that sounds,
I agree. Quads have killed
me over the last few days
as per my other post, and
3 other times in the past
two days, out of like 500 hands
where overfulls loses to quads.

Gregery or buzz discussed it with
me awhile back, more common than
I thought it would be.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
As stupid as that sounds,
I agree. Quads have killed
me over the last few days
as per my other post, and
3 other times in the past
two days, out of like 500 hands
where overfulls loses to quads.

Gregery or buzz discussed it with
me awhile back, more common than
I thought it would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
As stupid as that sounds,
I agree. Quads have killed
me over the last few days
as per my other post, and
3 other times in the past
two days, out of like 500 hands
where overfulls loses to quads.

Gregery or buzz discussed it with
me awhile back, more common than
I thought it would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Anyways, this is a ridiculously easy fold preflop. This is also probobly the worst spot ever to check the turn. I really cant think of a worse spot to check in O/8. A flush card could beat you, a low card could take 1/2 the pot away from you, theres like 1,000,000 other cards that could make a straight. I think you have to atleast pot it here and hope to take out some players.

Edit: I dont like the river check unless your certain someone will take a stab at it. (or have a good enough hand to make a bet) Make a 3/4 bet here.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I easily fold this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with Burdzthewurd. I would not play this hand. Your playing for basically half the pot with this hand unless you hit a miricle flop.

Scotty O

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

This should be an easy fold pre-flop. You are playing for half the pot with this hand, and it's unlikely that you will hit 1 of 2 cards you want to see on the high end. You aren't going to like your set much if the flop comes completely high.

You have to bet this turn. You have the best hand right here, but as has been pointed out there aren't many cards you really want to see on the river. You can't leave the pot sitting out there for someone to take away from you. Because of the draws, I would probalby go with a pot sized bet here.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

I sound like a donk, but the probabilities are
higher than one might think. Its how the
higher limit players make their money,
exploiting flukes like quads against overfulls.

Not that I would check of course, I would
pot it, but if you want to look
at my HHs for the last few days, you could see
that variance is certainly a long term phenomenon.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
As stupid as that sounds,
I agree. Quads have killed
me over the last few days
as per my other post, and
3 other times in the past
two days, out of like 500 hands
where overfulls loses to quads.

Gregery or buzz discussed it with
me awhile back, more common than
I thought it would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don’t drag me into this strange thread. I almost never worry about quads, particularly in LO8.

And "slowplaying" is a term used to describe when you have a monster hand. That is not the case here.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

Jesus, this forum has gone to sh!t since Wintermute, RawBabies and company were chased off.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

People telling you to fold this to a minraise are suggesting some really weak-tight play. QQxx, KKxx are hands that virtually play themselves (except when you fail to bet when you hit your set.) PT tells me they are very profitable hands for me.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus, this forum has gone to sh!t since Wintermute, RawBabies and company were chased off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I (WM) am reincarnated, temporarily at least, to make the occasional necessary post. But yeah, this forum is starting to suck hard. RawBabies never did any harm; bring him back!

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

any suggestions

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its how the
higher limit players make their money,
exploiting flukes like quads against overfulls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one that finds the suggestion that people are making most of their money by explioting quads vs. overfull flukes hilarious? Show me a guy that can extract the maximum with quads and not payoff the maximum when he is holding the overfull, and I am sure I will show you a guy pissing away ten times the chips he saves by treading too carefully on the overfull when the opponent doesn't have quads. I know this is almost a direct quote from Steve Badger's site, so I am not sure how much personaly experience you have playing in the bigger games online, but I watch them quite a bit and the play is nothing like a bunch of folding until a big quads vs. FH hand happens.

How often do you make quads? I make them probably much less often than once a week (granted I don't play as much as some do). You are telling me that they are playing for an opportunity that may come up much, much less often than once a week (much much less because they have to make low quads and have a big full house possible). This idea seems totally preposterous to me.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold; you have to assume somebody has quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's horrendous advice. I guess you should fold every time you get a full house. Don't listen to this, it's bad advice. Every <u>once</u> in a while, some one will have quads. So what? You're online, you have no tells and second nuts. Check-fold? What a joke.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold; you have to assume somebody has quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's horrendous advice. I guess you should fold every time you get a full house. Don't listen to this, it's bad advice. Every <u>once</u> in a while, some one will have quads. So what? You're online, you have no tells and second nuts. Check-fold? What a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irony. (n). When the literal meaning of a communication is the exact opposite of its intended meaning. Should not be used with humorously impaired individuals

-g

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
any suggestions

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, delete any thread where somebody is trying to figure out the winning low hand.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any suggestions

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, delete any thread where somebody is trying to figure out the winning low hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a start thanks. good idea.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

Not betting this turn is awful. Not necessarily because you are trying to thin the field (which would be nice) but because you'll get called by draws now that will not give you money on the river unless they hit.

Don't slowplay in O8.

Edit after reading: and bet the river.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any suggestions

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, delete any thread where somebody is trying to figure out the winning low hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a start thanks. good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider a "Play a Hand with the Masters" that the MTT forum is doing. It's gotten great reviews.

-g

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any suggestions

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, delete any thread where somebody is trying to figure out the winning low hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a start thanks. good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider a "Play a Hand with the Masters" that the MTT forum is doing. It's gotten great reviews.

-g

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this, it is a very good idea. Who would be the masters though? There are plenty of good players here, but how many would bother to do something like this?

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any suggestions

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, delete any thread where somebody is trying to figure out the winning low hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a start thanks. good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider a "Play a Hand with the Masters" that the MTT forum is doing. It's gotten great reviews.

-g

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this, it is a very good idea. Who would be the masters though? There are plenty of good players here, but how many would bother to do something like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, personally, I think Cooker gives good advice…..

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Consider a "Play a Hand with the Masters" that the MTT forum is doing. It's gotten great reviews.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about a "Rub One Out with the 'Sturbaters", I got a solid stash of porn I'm sure everyone could benefit from.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any suggestions

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, delete any thread where somebody is trying to figure out the winning low hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a start thanks. good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider a "Play a Hand with the Masters" that the MTT forum is doing. It's gotten great reviews.

-g

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you want to start something like that? If you put together the posts I'll sticky a guide and links to the post on each street. When I play o8 its mostly live mid-limit stuff and not very interesting. I think you or WM could come up with a good hand.

And no thanks on the porn wm but that's a nice thought.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

Here are the problems with the forum, in no particular order:

1. You have people posting advice who have no business giving advice. I mean some of these clowns post advice that is so bad it makes me want to vomit.

2. You have newbs posting hands and then when some of the better posters point out how badly they played the hand, the original poster gets pissed and starts insulting the people who are trying to help. In turn the good posters just refuse to give advice on here anymore, they prefer to use sarcastic one liners, which I find amusing FWIW.

I think the only way to clean this forum up is that when someone posts bad advice on multiple occasions, they should be warned not to post advice and if they continue to do so just [censored] Ban them. JMO

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. You have people posting advice who have no business giving advice. I mean some of these clowns post advice that is so bad it makes me want to vomit.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think one of the disadvantages we have is we don't have a micro, small, high-limit breakdown. In the micro-limit HE forums, for example, people just blindly post bad advice--it's expected of them. Then, the more knowledgeable posters who are maybe just a bit ahead of them in the learning process correct them about the stupid stuff they say and everybody learns from it (supposedly). Conversely, in the mid/high forums, a higher standard is expected and its preferable that people lurk if they are FOS. We don't have that luxury. This makes it tough to delete posts with bad content or noobish thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
2. You have newbs posting hands and then when some of the better posters point out how badly they played the hand, the original poster gets pissed and starts insulting the people who are trying to help. In turn the good posters just refuse to give advice on here anymore, they prefer to use sarcastic one liners, which I find amusing FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

This always annoys me. Just a couple weeks ago I spent a substantial amount of time responding to some posts in the PLO forum only to get flamed by the original poster because he didn't like the fact he had totally bumbled up the hand. Definitely a problem and I'll lock threads when this happens.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only way to clean this forum up is that when someone posts bad advice on multiple occasions, they should be warned not to post advice and if they continue to do so just [censored] Ban them. JMO

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is problematic. I think a better rule of thumb might be that people shouldn't post with regards to stakes they either (a) don't play (b) don't have the requisite knowledge to play (i'm thinking of guys like Buzz who play 3/6 or whatever but probably understand limit O8 better then a lot of the guys in the 75/150). If somebody is persistently posting with regards to hands they aren't qualified to discuss, I could see warning them.

But if a newb wants to respond to every PLO25 post as a learning exercise I don't see why I'd want to discourage that.

Also, I want to remind everyone that at the bottom of each post there is a button that will notify me by e-mail (I carry a Crackberry [for other reasons obviously] so I'll get it right away) to come check out the post. This isn't only for spam. If you think a post is ridiculuous, painfully low content, out-of-line, etc, please just click the notify moderator button. I'll check it out and if I agree I'll do something. If not, I'll leave it, no harm no foul.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

Can we have a Wintermute annoying the feck out of me button added too? :-)

How about a Ribbo targetting mechanism...I'm sure Captain America would find WMD in Warrington.

gl

dd

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

I'd like to see more PLO8 tournament hands posted, maybe use that for the "Hand with the Masters" segment once in awhile? I can't think off the top of my head anyone but myself that posts MTT and SNG PLO8 hands, I'd think someone else out there plays these more often than I.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can we have a Wintermute annoying the feck out of me button added too? :-)

How about a Ribbo targetting mechanism...I'm sure Captain America would find WMD in Warrington.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

I have two other ideas from other forums I read:

(1) A weekly, or maybe in the case of this forum monthly, digest of the most worthwhile threads posted during previous week/month. If a regular poster is interested in doing this and can be consistent about it for a while just let me know and I'll sticky the post once you've gone through the last month and found the best 5-10 threads. Whoever does this may want break the digest up into limit and pot-limit posts. This practice is good not only because it can help take care of FAQs but it also revives good threads that people may have overlooked. Example of a Digest.

(2) A "How Good is your O8" type post. In the small stakes NLHE forum a poster puts a hand together and posts it with a poll for each street. It's interesting to see what the majority of people would do on each street and it often provokes some good discussion. No need to volunteer for this one just do it and I'll make it a sticky till it burns out. Example.

Re: Slow Play? #1 (PLO8)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can we have a Wintermute annoying the feck out of me button added too? :-)

How about a Ribbo targetting mechanism...I'm sure Captain America would find WMD in Warrington.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn’t mind invading Warrington, but the stench might be overpowering

Can we wear gas masks?