Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

"Young Guns". Cassidy completes SB, Fischman checks BB with 72o. Fischman flops a boat. Cassidy checks and Fischman bets. Doesn't seem like the standard play.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

This might be the worst post ever.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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This might be the worst post ever.

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Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

I'll occassionally make those plays to be sort of counter-intuitive, I think I would do that live more than online, because if I trap everytime I hit a monster it might kill the action on paired boards or be too suspicious.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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This might be the worst post ever. and it's posted in 2 forums

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[/ QUOTE ]fyp

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

MAKE BIG POTS WITH BIG HANDS

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

You do realize deception, is not only achieved by checking your monsters right? If he is betting here with 45o he should also bet with a boat.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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This might be the worst post ever.

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Why? Isn't this worth discussing? He didn't play it the way Doyle advised in "Super System".

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

Doyle doesn't have a monopoly on the right way to play poker. I personally disagree with a lot of stuff he says in SS.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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Why? Isn't this worth discussing? He didn't play it the way Doyle advised in "Super System".

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Its not a fcking instructional guide. He probably plays a flopped boat a billion different ways.

This post is clueless.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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I'll occassionally make those plays to be sort of counter-intuitive, I think I would do that live more than online, because if I trap everytime I hit a monster it might kill the action on paired boards or be too suspicious.

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Agreed. I actually do it a lot at low stakes. I'm sure at higher stakes you should do it less frequently.

I also agree that this post sucks.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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This might be the worst post ever.

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Why? Isn't this worth discussing? He didn't play it the way Doyle advised in "Super System".

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I don't understand everyone's harshness. I think that 90% of the players on here would check there. I think that as part of an overall strategy against an aggressive player, a bet there is pretty good. Why is everyone always bagging on betgo?

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

Betting > checking.

If you check, you pretty much always win a small pot.

If you bet, not only might he call with PPs and Ace high if he limps that?, but you might get someone try to bluff you thinking your weak because they share the same logic as the poster that you should check with a big hand in this spot.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

oh man this is got me at the edge of my seat.... what happened next ????

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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you might get someone try to bluff you thinking your weak because they share the same logic as the poster that you should check with a big hand in this spot.

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So, you think a guy like Joe Cassidy thinks you should ckeck with a big hand?

To be honest, I think it's a better play to check. In the turn 2 things can happen:

A) Joe hits his pair.

- If Joe bets, he's calling your raise, and check-calling the river and you win a decent pot.

- If Joe checks, he's check-raising you and then if you call (or raise) and raise (or bet) the river, you also win a decent pot.

B) Joe does not hit

- He may bet trying to buy the pot, if you raise him, he may even reraise thinking you are in a resteal.

- If Joe checks and now you bet, he may raise you to resteal.


So, if Scott decides to play in the flop, basically there is only option B; but if he waits for the turn then he has options A and B. I think the turn and the river are enough to build a pot. It's not like they have 200 BB.


And like Soss, I don't understand the negativity towards the OP; what about some real arguments.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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And like Soss, I don't understand the negativity towards the OP; what about some real arguments.

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Agreed. And even if you have arguments, as Sirio's argument shows, it's not a "Do I fold AA pre-flop against two all-ins on the bubble?" question. Give the guy a break.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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I also agree that this post sucks.

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Wow, this post has attracted almost as much hostility and name calling as my theory of why it can be advantageous to stay in the red zone.

I didn't say Fischman's play was wrong. I just brought it up because it was unusual.

Does everyone think this is the worst post ever because it is obvious that betting out with a boat is a standard play?

I know everyone is against slow playing, but you slow play a boat for two reasons. It is almost impossible for anyone to draw out on you. It is almost impossible for anyone to have connected to the board. This is particularly true with a 772,r board that doesn't allow many draws.

Now I assume the reason Fischman was that it was adangerous board that it looked like no one had connected with. He hoped Cassidy would play back with nothing. He also may have thought a check might create the suspicion he had trips.

The result was that Cassidy folded.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

Oviously he was hoping Cassidy had a stronger hand. It seems really sneaky to check there If you have the reputation of an aggressive player that would bet there without a hand (i dont know if this is the case with Fischman or what Cassidy thinks of him) but I think most times you get more chips by checking there regardless of how sneaky it looks.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

Unless cassidy likes to re-raise or likes to play pocket pairs for cheap from the SB I would probably check..

I dont agree with a lot of the things in SuperSystem (Doyle's strategy works for Doyle, not necessarily anyone else..) but this is one I do agree with him. When you flop a boat you have the deck crippled, you really need to check and hope either hes going to try a steal or make a hand on the turn.

I would in fact check on the flop and on the turn, because most players cant resist 2 checks and are going to bet me.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

I'm a little stunned at how many 2+2'ers think this is a bad play.

I think Scott, with his aggressive style, would definately look suspicious if he didn't bet but kept in the hand. And by all means, keep your opponents guessing.

I can't believe how many people wanna slowplay this. By all means, if your table image is a tight passive rock, then do this....

but if you're image is a predator, then it looks unnatural if you aren't firing away in there...

wow....some folks on the forum have a lot to learn.

RB

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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This might be the worst post ever.

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This might be the worst post ever.

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This might be the worst post ever. and it's posted in 2 forums


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fyp


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Why? Isn't this worth discussing? He didn't play it the way Doyle advised in "Super System".


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Its not a fcking instructional guide. He probably plays a flopped boat a billion different ways.

This post is clueless.

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I also agree that this post sucks.

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This seems to have created some interesting discussion for the worst post ever. In the future, could you guys please keep the discussion civil and give arguments rather than insults.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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I also agree that this post sucks.

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Wow, this post has attracted almost as much hostility and name calling as my theory of why it can be advantageous to stay in the red zone.

I didn't say Fischman's play was wrong. I just brought it up because it was unusual.

Does everyone think this is the worst post ever because it is obvious that betting out with a boat is a standard play?

I know everyone is against slow playing, but you slow play a boat for two reasons. It is almost impossible for anyone to draw out on you. It is almost impossible for anyone to have connected to the board. This is particularly true with a 772,r board that doesn't allow many draws.

Now I assume the reason Fischman was that it was adangerous board that it looked like no one had connected with. He hoped Cassidy would play back with nothing. He also may have thought a check might create the suspicion he had trips.

The result was that Cassidy folded.

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The reason for the hostility is because you left out every detail. You didn't say if it was rainbow or suited; you didn't give stack sizes; you didn't give blind sized; and you didn't give bet sizes. Had fischman led a huge % of flops before this?

If you asked me "should you bet out when you flop a boat?" I' respond "it depends."

Also, never leading with a flopped boat against players you're going to see again (or on TV), is obviously horrible becuause then every time you lead, your opponent will know you don't have a boat.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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I also agree that this post sucks.

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Wow, this post has attracted almost as much hostility and name calling as my theory of why it can be advantageous to stay in the red zone.

I didn't say Fischman's play was wrong. I just brought it up because it was unusual.

Does everyone think this is the worst post ever because it is obvious that betting out with a boat is a standard play?

I know everyone is against slow playing, but you slow play a boat for two reasons. It is almost impossible for anyone to draw out on you. It is almost impossible for anyone to have connected to the board. This is particularly true with a 772,r board that doesn't allow many draws.

Now I assume the reason Fischman was that it was adangerous board that it looked like no one had connected with. He hoped Cassidy would play back with nothing. He also may have thought a check might create the suspicion he had trips.

The result was that Cassidy folded.

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The reason for the hostility is because you left out every detail. You didn't say if it was rainbow or suited; you didn't give stack sizes; you didn't give blind sized; and you didn't give bet sizes. Had fischman led a huge % of flops before this?

If you asked me "should you bet out when you flop a boat?" I' respond "it depends."

Also, never leading with a flopped boat against players you're going to see again (or on TV), is obviously horrible becuause then every time you lead, your opponent will know you don't have a boat.

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I saw the hand on TV and I don't have all the information about stack sizes, blind sizes, the exact flop, how they played previous hands etc. It's not like I can get a hand history like online.

It was 3-handed, so the blinds were fairly big. I think I rermember the flop, and I gave it later on.

Are you serious about if you don't bet with a flopped boat, your opponent will know you don't have a boat? You don't flop a boat that often. This only matters if your opponent flops trips top kicker or something, an they are probably not going to fold for fear of a boat anyway. Later in the hand, you could still have a boat even if you didn't flop one.

I was not saying the play was bad, just that it was unusual, and I think there has been some interesting discussion of this by intelligent posters such as sirio11 and sossman.

Perhaps I should have explained in the initial post why betting out with a boat was unusual. The TV commentators were acting very suprised and like it was an unusual play and maybe a bad play. This was a limped pot and there were no draws. It's not like leading into a raiser who may have an over pair.

I think some people didn't understand that it is pretty standard to slowplay a boat and why that is. Therefore they reacted with "worst post ever", like I posted that someone flopped a set and bet out.

Perhaps I should have posted more information, but my critics should also give a more intelligent and detailed criticism rather than "worst post ever" or "this post sucks".

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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I think Scott, with his aggressive style, would definately look suspicious if he didn't bet but kept in the hand. And by all means, keep your opponents guessing.


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So, if Joe Cassidy has a Q and a Q hits the turn, he's check-folding because that dude Fischman really looked suspicious?

Wow, you just discovered the key to win pots when playing heads up with 3 people left. Just check the flop and they know you have a monster. They won't call you even with top pair.

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I can't believe how many people wanna slowplay this.

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What about the novel idea, because maybe it's the way to win more chips from your opponent?

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but if you're image is a predator, then it looks unnatural if you aren't firing away in there...


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so what?, you think with players like Fishman and Cassidy their thinking is, he bets then bluff, he checks then monster; I assure you they are a little more complex than that.

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wow....some folks on the forum have a lot to learn.


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Oh, definitely

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

Betgo, for having such a high pot count your threads have mega sucked. Badly. First "Which is the best poker book?" and now this. Tisk tisk.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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Betgo, for having such a high pot count your threads have mega sucked. Badly. First "Which is the best poker book?" and now this. Tisk tisk.

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I don't think you understand the point of either of those threads. If you don't understand them, then they seem pointless.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

This post really does suck. He bet the flop because he thought it would be a +EV play. It's not mandatory to slowplay a big hand.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

what the hell is wrong with betting this,
I think it is a great move to bet out on the flop with monsters,so the boards was 772 or something,
if you have a agressive image your opponent you even give you credit for a 7,

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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This post really does suck. He bet the flop because he thought it would be a +EV play. It's not mandatory to slowplay a big hand.

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It's kind of standard to check a boat on the flop. I am not talking about a big hand in general. I am talking about a boat.

I am sure he thought it was EV+. However, when someone makes a nonstandard play, isn't ir reasonable to consider why he made it, and whether it was a good play?

Are you aware that betting out when you flop a boat is not the standard play?

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

It's not a nonstandard play. People bet out strong hands all the time.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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It's not a nonstandard play. People bet out strong hands all the time.

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I didn't say a strong hand. I said a <u>boat</u>. My understanding is not good players don't usually bet out with boats.

If people don't agree about this, than maybe we have something to discuss and it is not a stupid post.

Maybe you could learn something on this forum rahter than putting down what you don't understand.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

yikes betgo, they're really letting you have it for no reason at all.

Alright i don't think i'd bet here, but i don't think it's neceesarily bad to do so, i mean, if you're betting at a lot of flops, might aswell bet some that you hit hard. Though, like David said, i think in this case he hit it hard enough to let Joe catch up some.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

I saw that episode while I was in the states and I remember talking with a friend about how strange that play was. Most of the replys here are useless, the post brings an interesting hand that, god forbid, was actually shown on TV. It's not like anything shown on TV is pure entertaiment crap. They do have poker plays from time to time.

I'm sorry to say, but Scott's play was bad. In an unraised pot, HU, on possibly the worst looking flop possible, he has very little chance to get money out of Cassidy at that point.

I do have a lot to learn about poker, but anyone who thinks he should ALWAYS do something, betting, checking, raising, whatever, has a major problem. You shouldn't always trap big hands, you shouldn't always check flopped boats or even quads, but in this hand, I think Scott made a bad play by betting.

And what the hell was so bad about the OP?

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

I thought the title was absolutely hilarious. "THIS JUST IN!!! WSOP BRACELET WINNER FLOPS A BOAT!!! AND BETS IT!!!!!"

As for the hand, yeah, it's cool. I can go either way on this. I'd much prefer the bet if he had position though.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

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If people don't agree about this, than maybe we have something to discuss and it is not a stupid post.

Maybe you could learn something on this forum rahter than putting down what you don't understand.

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I hear this...I would definately check and i am still a self-admitted donk (just donked myself out in 80th in yesterdays 10+1 Stars deepstack). When a checked BB bets into this flop though i would almost always auto-fold (hole in my game?) as it could only indicate strength at any level. But as one post said, Fishman is viewed as one who will bet any flop with any two, so i think a bet disguises his BOAT well.

But im just a donk.

Emon96

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

stupidest. thread. ever.

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stupidest. thread. ever.

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Worst punctuation ever.

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

What were the stack sizes? I'd be interested in some response to my posts in this thread, discussing Mike Osborne's magazine article, "Inappropriate Slowplaying in No Limit Hold 'em Tournaments".

My theory is that in NL, it's often correct to slowplay when the pot is big but not slowplay when the pot is small. (For limit holdem, it would be exactly the reverse.)

Re: Fischman flop a boat and bets it
 

I don't know. It was a limped pot SB vs. BB and it was pretty late, so the money was not that deep. I guess since it was a limped pot, you could say it was a small pot, which favors fast playing according to your theory.