Attitudes Around Here
 

What the heck has happened around here?

There used to be a time when new posters were welcomed. Their first few posts would show that they had a lot to learn and the more experienced posters would point that out to them. Some of them would be blunter in their “help” than others but nonetheless they would be helpful. In one of my first posts three years ago, Dynasty called me a fish. He did, however, explain exactly why I was fish. But I learned a little, most of the new posters also learned; some of them have even become great players and currently are given a lot of respect around here.

Did some of Tx early posts show that he had a lot to learn? Did he try to justify and argue his positions despite the replies from said esteemed posters? To both of those questions the answer is yes. But has he tried to learn? Did he publicly admit that he was wrong in his first posts? Is he trying to get better and is looking for help? The answers to all of those are yes as well.

But since he is not an “expert” some of the “experts” here continue to berate him and act as though he is beneath them and not worthy of help. Cut the guy some slack. I’m only mediocre, but I’m going to try to help him out as best I can. You folks should too.

Maybe everybody has decided to emulate the “El Diablo” style of post. However, if you look at his cutting one liners, they are usually directed to a poster that he thinks should know better. When the next new poster shows up, cut out the condescending attitude. Perhaps it will help if you look at the first few of your own posts and remember how far you have come.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

well said.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Good post.

-Michael

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

nicely said.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

It bothers me when people respond like that and I've chided El Diablo about it more than once.

That said, what deserves these obnoxious responses is not when new posters post mistake-ridden hands. What deserves these responses is that the mistakes are so often corrected and then the OP will argue as if he already knows everything, because he can't imagine he might be wrong.

The attitude I came in with was "I have tons to learn and these people will help." So I'd take criticism and not think twice. I once posted an SS hand where I cold-called a raise with T9s, 3-bet the turn with a flushdraw and hit the river and checked cause the board paired. slavic responded with a "misplayed on every street" and others' responses ranged from "awful" to "fold every street."

The prevailing attitude among new posters now seems to be "Look how well I play and still lose, someone just tell me I'm unlucky or that it's rigged."

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
what deserves these obnoxious responses is not when new posters post mistake-ridden hands. What deserves these responses is that the mistakes are so often corrected and then the OP will argue as if he already knows everything, because he can't imagine he might be wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

i remember my first posts. some were stupid, but i always took comments and criticism constructively.

i definately sucked when i started, and argued my point but would immediately accept a point when proven wrong.

i have nothing against that and treat all new posters who come in like that (lestat) well.

Barron

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

It is funny though. Every new person is another competator. Do we really want to encourage more people to join the forums? The answer, of course, is no. We'd much prefer if our small group of players were the only ones with access to this forum. We want our "tribe" to do well, and we realize that this is at the expense of the world. So, when the natural response is to reject any newcomers, but we were taught in kindergarten to share and to help others. Those two forces battle within us. The individual new poster can help either side of our humanity by their approach to us. If a new poster comes off as abrasive, a know-it-all, etc etc then he helps his own rejection. If a poster flatters us, comes to us humbly, and expresses a desire (and capability) to learn then he speeds his acceptance.

<shrug>

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

On one hand, I do agree that some of the responses are out of line on this forum. It's not necessary to berate new posters so harshly. On the other hand, a lot of new posters don't come with the attitude that they are inexperienced players who are looking to learn. No, they want to discuss their already-made skills, which don't exist. This is going to generate a lot of negative response.

From a different viewpoint though, this is the way I see it. It's kind of in line with what CSC said. If a player truly wants to learn, they'll deal with all the crap in order to be able to have access to the knowledge that this community of poker players has. Tx has shown that he wants to learn. I'm pretty sure most people would not have hung around after all the crap he had to take. But the rewards were worth it. He's learning as a player and he's taking less crap. I admit that I didn't have to deal with as much criticism as he did, but I also didn't come in with the same attitude.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is funny though. Every new person is another competator. Do we really want to encourage more people to join the forums? The answer, of course, is no. We'd much prefer if our small group of players were the only ones with access to this forum. We want our "tribe" to do well, and we realize that this is at the expense of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with pretty much everything you said. People who are smart, want to learn and are motivated are going to become better poker players. We can either help them and in turn, be helped by them, or spurn them and create a possible rival that may eventually eclipse us.

Do you want an open, openminded organization constantly injected with new ideas and new members or a closed, narrowminded organization, that rejects new members with new ideas?

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]


you said you quit liar

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

It wasn't a mission statement, Ace. Just a observation of normal human attitudes. Though if you think tribalism doesn't exist here, you are welcome to disagree. Personally, I feel both instincts - to reject newcomers as competition and to help anyone that asks.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

You are very nice.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
People who are smart, want to learn and are motivated are going to become better poker players. We can either help them and in turn, be helped by them, or spurn them and create a possible rival that may eventually eclipse us.

[/ QUOTE ]

There exist people spurned by 2+2 who have, in some ways, eclipsed 2+2.

~D

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

FU Diablo.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't a mission statement, Ace. Just a observation of normal human attitudes. Though if you think tribalism doesn't exist here, you are welcome to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it does or doesn't exist, I'm saying we should try to minimize it's effects.

The reason we win enough to make big $$$ is mostly because the bad players enjoy playing and losing. Not because we hide the secrets to Texas Hold 'em from non-believers.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
There exist people spurned by 2+2 who have, in some ways, eclipsed 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

See what you've done, Card Sharp?


























( Joking )

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People who are smart, want to learn and are motivated are going to become better poker players. We can either help them and in turn, be helped by them, or spurn them and create a possible rival that may eventually eclipse us.

[/ QUOTE ]

There exist people spurned by 2+2 who have, in some ways, eclipsed 2+2.

~D

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but at least 2+2 is trying desperately to catch up to Derb.

Josh

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

When a new player asks a question and an experienced player is nice enough to take the time to answer that question, and instead of thanks, the experienced player receives a smart-ass indignant reply from the new player... Why do you think the experienced player is out of line for getting teed-off?

Maybe you like a good kick in the nuts after doing a good deed, but others take exception to it.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Les,

I think the point barry is trying to make is along the lines of the continued abuse. Take Daryns post about me just today. The guy wont let up. I've jabbed back, but, I know a friend of mine who tried posting some hands in the NL section and was ridiculed for it.

Agreed, I had a bad attitude at first, but, when I recant and apologize, and still recieve blatant abuse, it's just not cool for 2+2 and it's purpose.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

I wasn't referring to you in particular, but I agree that you've taken more than your fair share of ridicule and it should've subsided by now, especially since your public recantation. Personally, I stopped ridiculing the second you showed some sign of humility (which I think is an important trait for a successful poker player to have btw-), the first or second day.

Unfortunately, for some people, first impressions are lasting ones, and while you can argue the length of the sentence, you can't dispute the initial cause or crime.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

I stopped posting any of my hands long ago and I really haven't felt regret in doing so. 2+2 is now/always was a groupy/clubby place and that's just the way it is. I have long since lost any interest at all in fitting in. The #1 use I get out of this website is reading hand discussions between the pompous asses (who are also the better players here). I can still get quite a bit of use from this site regardless. People have a right to be assholes here, you're asking for help and offering nothing in return, so it's not like you can complain. People expecting some type of helpful egalitarian society here are really asking for a bit much. Not only is helping people for nothing beyond kind, it's also at detriment to themselves. I think the boards would be better off if people stopped with the stupid 1 liners and instead simply responded with nothing.

Re: Attitudes Around Her...HEY BARRON
 

Just look at the title under my handle.

It may be a joke to some, but, I think Barron is serious.

And when the moderator gives a member a title like WARNING....blahblahblah, well, it gives guys like daryn the idea it's okay to blast me, because, well, the moderator kind of condones it in some sort of way....else he wouldnt put that under my handle.

It was funny at first, but now it is getting old when people come out of the wood work to tell me they hate me



Tex

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Great post.

The only thing that I think you should have added on this same line is how ridiculous it is when the regulars constantly belly ache about how bad the forums are getting and therefore stop posting helpful, solid advice. This really only creates a self fullfilling prophecy. It makes no sense to me that experienced posters talk about starting their own forum so that the noobs won't degrade the discussion. What happened to giving a little back? We were all noobs at one time..only a few of us still play and post like noobs.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha i un-ignored you just to see what you would say in this thread, I think Barry's OP is excellent, so i'm not going to hijak this thread for personal reasons. However, i would like to say going from thead to thread and insulting people because you don't like the content is probably why you find people treat your hostily. I know you had had no previous interaction with baronzeus, myself, or Josh W. before you randomly decided to start [censored] with us.

I am not one to hold onto grudges, and i think Tex's attitude adjustment is a great example of the productivity that can come from thses boards. nice post Barry.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Very true!

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there is. I'm a dick.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there is. I'm a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

A famous one, at that.

Rob

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
What the heck has happened around here?

There used to be a time when new posters were welcomed. Their first few posts would show that they had a lot to learn and the more experienced posters would point that out to them. Some of them would be blunter in their “help” than others but nonetheless they would be helpful. In one of my first posts three years ago, Dynasty called me a fish. He did, however, explain exactly why I was fish. But I learned a little, most of the new posters also learned; some of them have even become great players and currently are given a lot of respect around here.

Did some of Tx early posts show that he had a lot to learn? Did he try to justify and argue his positions despite the replies from said esteemed posters? To both of those questions the answer is yes. But has he tried to learn? Did he publicly admit that he was wrong in his first posts? Is he trying to get better and is looking for help? The answers to all of those are yes as well.

But since he is not an “expert” some of the “experts” here continue to berate him and act as though he is beneath them and not worthy of help. Cut the guy some slack. I’m only mediocre, but I’m going to try to help him out as best I can. You folks should too.

Maybe everybody has decided to emulate the “El Diablo” style of post. However, if you look at his cutting one liners, they are usually directed to a poster that he thinks should know better. When the next new poster shows up, cut out the condescending attitude. Perhaps it will help if you look at the first few of your own posts and remember how far you have come.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first posted on this forum, it was in the SSNL and single table forums. While I was at first a bit peeved at the response "fold once preflop, twice on the flop, and once on the turn" (C/R,C/B) I reminded myself how much better these posters I had read advice from before than me. And I accepted that I came here to drastically improve my game. However, that being said, I think this sort of bluntness is acceptable, on the contigency that it come with detailed reasoning. A simple, that's horrible, fold at every step, tells someone they were wrong, but giving explanation helps them understand why, and how to apply it in other situations.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there is. I'm a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

A famous one, at that.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Infamy and fame are different things, but I get your point.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there is. I'm a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

A famous one, at that.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Infamy and fame are different things, but I get your point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at this point, you can qualify as both famous and infamous. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Hi Barry,

For what it's worth...

I'm part of a private email discussion among players and friends from the New York area. My impression from them is that they all hate 2+2 for basically the reasons you mention.

There are great poker minds out there not participating because of all the arrogance and hate here.

-Eric

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

So your saying you want your ego's stroked or you will treat new posters rudely? I'm not saying this in a mean way. But it sounds like you think this is your and your buddies personal forum. Its not. And you may learn from the new posters if you give them a chance. Again i have nothing against you and had no problems with you. But your statements above seem arrogant.

Re: Attitudes Around Her...HEY BARRON
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just look at the title under my handle.

It may be a joke to some, but, I think Barron is serious.

And when the moderator gives a member a title like WARNING....blahblahblah, well, it gives guys like daryn the idea it's okay to blast me, because, well, the moderator kind of condones it in some sort of way....else he wouldnt put that under my handle.

It was funny at first, but now it is getting old when people come out of the wood work to tell me they hate me



Tex

[/ QUOTE ]


wtf? dude, i don't even know who you are! i had no prior knowledge of you before today.. i just saw the lamest post in history about COME SWEAT ME IN MY GAME, and then nobody responds so you make the next 2 replies TO YOURSELF like, OMG I HAD KQ THAT HAND, WHAT DO U THINK LOL?!

i guarantee you i do not treat someone in a nice way just because they have been here for years, or in a bad way because they are new.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

I do applaud you for your honesty. Many wouldnt admit to tribalism. Even though it is a definate reality in forums.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Hi CardSharp,

I don't know about tribalism, but I definitely feel the conflict between helping people and giving up my own edge. I can think of more than one occassion where I've held back in really arguing a point because I really don't want people to know about it.

In my case, whether or not I choose to offer free advice on any given day is correlated with my general feeling of good will toward the site. If I'm feeling like everyone is arrogant, then I keep my thoughts to myself.

Some might not care, believing I don't have anything new to contribute anyways. They may be right, but that misses the point. There are probably others out there who do have interesting things to say but who have left 2+2 probably never to return because they don't like the argumentative style. In fact, I personally know several. One guy taught showed me the subtleties of 3-betting a late position steal raise when you are light yourself. Another helped me with my live table image. A couple others have taught me key lessons about NL, a game I'm still struggling to understand. All left months or years ago because they didn't feel like putting up with the hostility. In my opinion, this is a loss to the experts on the forum, and we should strive to prevent this as much as possible.

my 2 cents.
eric

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Couldn't agree more

One of my earliest posts here asked someone how they were calculating variance. NOT how do you calculate variance. Which because I was a new poster was how it was interpeted as the later by the powers that be.

That individual even felt the need to start a new thread, using my incorrectly read post as an example (with my name included), of why this forum needs a moderator.

1) Being pompous does not make one good at poker. (In fact I would argue having a big ego is a detriment)
2) Having a lot of posts here does not automatically make one good at poker.

Yet the attitude around here seems to be both those things are true.

Then they claim that it's these 'standard' posts that drive away good posters. Yeah right :we need a rolly eye graemlins:

My post:
[ QUOTE ]

People bring up expected values and variance. Curious how you are calculating them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reply's
[ QUOTE ]
MNPoker,

Will all due respect because I am trying to be nice to a new poster, the purpose of this particular forum is not to spoon feed you the answers to these questions. We know these things from studying theory and from practical experience.

If you want to learn more about variance try the probability forum or read Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth. For Expected Value see the Theory of Poker by Sklansky or Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller.

If you have already read these, then I apologize and suggest that you review them.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
are we the only forum w/o a mod?

.....................

......... I could do w/o the MNpoker type posts (have them simply moved to correct forums would be nice) (and sorry to pick on MNpoker in particular but questions about EV and Variance clearly dont belong ehre).

..............

just a thought...meant to help clean up this forum a bit and stop or move inane posts...like this one

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the long post.

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

Things haven't changed. This isn't really anything new.

Ill rant a bit:

[ QUOTE ]
There used to be a time when new posters were welcomed. Their first few posts would show that they had a lot to learn and the more experienced posters would point that out to them.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
a lot of new posters don't come with the attitude that they are inexperienced players who are looking to learn. No, they want to discuss their already-mad skills, which don't exist. This is going to generate a lot of negative response.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, I agree, for the most part, that this is a root of alot of it when it happens. And we see it more and more all the time. I don't see the 'new' posters that are open and receptive to learning or comparing other ideas getting this treatment. Yes, sometimes an A-HOle will chime in to them, but that doesn't last long if it does. These new ones seem to offer something other than, 'king sh*t is here, all bow before me'.

But once they've made that wonderful, 'I am better than all of you' types of posts, usually somewhere buried in their opening threads after they've been proven wrong for the most part and/or a flaw(gasp! god forbid!) has been exposed in their game, no, the sentiment isn't going to just go away on their next post. It's on them to set their own ego aside and realize they may just be interacting with players that have literally studied the living sh*t out of the game and already went through the major debates on the 'new' concept they think they're trying to present. But god forbid someone points something out inside their post that they don't think is in question but would likely really help their game more than their initial question. Then they just hide behind the old, 'that wasn't the point of my post/not my question so we won't talk about that concept' crap. That type of posting from new posters is rampant on the boards now.

If they want to come in and post like a prick, well then, they can expect an uphill trudge to gain any reputation as a respectable player/poster. They should be lucky to even get any response on threads after they come in like that.

For instance, when some idiot comes in and posts a hand where he's 'teaching' everyone how it's wrong to raise AA in the BB with 7 limpers in, then literally calling everyone morons who've countered their argument with solid reasoning, because, after all, they've played for x years, not to mention all the time put in killing their home game, read 1/2 a book and just 'knows' this is how you should play so everyone else can F off as far as they're concerned...

screw 'em.

You come on a board like this, with that type of 'tude, you can expect to have your sh*t called out. They reap what they've sown when they first posted and brought that attitude in.

But that said, this doesn't mean the poster can't change his attitude. However, the proof lies with them to show it, imo. Sometimes they don't realize(or care) that while they put themselves so high up on their own pedestals right off the bat, the only thing they're attracting are birds to cover them with crap.

end rant

b

Re: Attitudes Around Here
 

It's human nature to do these types of things. They're not nice, and probably not correct, but we'll do them anyways. And all forums are like this. You'll have a hard time finding a forum where a "Hi, I'm ___ and I like ___" type post is welcome. Likewise, at 2+2, "Hi, I'm ___ and I'm god's gift to poker" posts aren't welcome. Post counts shouldn't mean much, but they tend to be used for heirarchical differential at all internet forums.

If a player wants to learn, he'll deal with the crap. Plus, I'm not too keen on the idea of welcoming all the fish in and buying free copies of SSHE for them, just so we can be kind.

On a different note, it's been my experience that a lot of the egotism comes from the high-stakes players. It's understandable, I guess. I'm sure they've heard all the stupid questions time after time and are probably sick of hearing them. I think this could be an argument for splitting into separate mid and high stakes forums. I mean, who the hell wants to post 15/30 hands when half the responses they get are "this belongs in small stakes"?