Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

Cross posting in B&M because a similar thread there came up in my search.

One table tournament - 6 players left
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Dealer Calls, SB completes, BB checks
Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB bets, Dealer Calls, SB folds
Turn 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, Dealer checks
River A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB goes all-in
The dealer thinks for a minute and then tables K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and says, “I think this two pair is good. I don’t think you slow played the flush and I don’t believe you’ve got AK or you would have come out stronger pre-flop. I call”. SB mucks and concedes pot.

Other players at the table felt that Dealer tabling his cards to get a read on BB was a questionable manuever. Nothing in the home rulebook (RRoP) addressed this issue.

From the TDA Rules:
“6. Penalties: A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if softplay occurs, or similar incidents take place.”

“36. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.”

Does anyone know what the spirit/reasoning behind these rules is?

The players were heads-up and this didn’t influence anyone else’s betting since there was no more action. So what do you think: was this an angle shoot, a rule violation, or a good play?

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

Well, it would hae been better had he made his speech before he turned over his cards, but clearly he was going to call anyhow. I think this is slightly bad etiquette, but not an overt violation.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

I absolutely HATE stuff like this in general during home games and small tournaments at stores and such. These kind of theatrics make for great TV so if you're on the WTP or WSOP then go for it. Otherwise, think silently and fold or call.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

I looked into this exact issue not too long ago.

Brunson advocates this play in SS2 to get a read on opponents in ring games. From the responses I got, if its not outright illegal in tournaments, its very poor form.

The last time I pulled this move my brother thought I was folding without saying so, and exposed his losing hand. As he was a beginner, other players (friends) got on my case for doing this, and I think they had good reason. It can be a confusing and devious play.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

People (namely one person) do(es) this in my home game all the time, and nobody seems to care. I consider myself to be one (of two) of the most serious players there, and it doesn't bother me; I'm usually not the one pushing all in against him, and when I am, I just stare at the community cards so no one can get a read. To me, announcing what he has is no different than flipping his cards, and in my game we allow sharing our hole cards with players out of the hand anyway. Its all a matter of personal preference, do whatever you and your players agree on.

Steve

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

At least he didn't fake a fold. Basically you should have a rule up front about it not being acceptable. It's an ambiguous move that can only cause problems.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

[ QUOTE ]
These kind of theatrics make for great TV so if you're on the WTP or WSOP then go for it. Otherwise, think silently and fold or call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Haha it's also successfully, and admittedly, been used by one of the most successful and by far most popular high stakes player of all time (I think his name's Doyle or something) for decades. So don't make it out to be mere showmanship. It's also not a violation of a single rule of tourney poker (in most rooms) and even cash games in many casinos and if a player feels it helps he/she get a read then go for it. Of course I don't like all the talk but don't criticize the guy, some people prefer to think out loud. Either way, not an angle shoot.

DICLAIMER: I NEVER GO WITH THAT MOVE. JUST STATING THAT MANY PLAYERS (Including a man who is arguably the "greatest" NL hold em player of all time) DO CONSIDER IT A SMART, USEFUL STRATEGY.

Good luck,
Matt

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

Taken from http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/rules_JG.asp:

" A Participant may not show any cards during a hand. If a Participant shows a card to induce action, the hand may be ruled dead. "

I thought it was standard that exposing cards kills the hand since the WSOP does it.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These kind of theatrics make for great TV so if you're on the WTP or WSOP then go for it. Otherwise, think silently and fold or call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Haha it's also successfully, and admittedly, been used by one of the most successful and by far most popular high stakes player of all time (I think his name's Doyle or something) for decades. So don't make it out to be mere showmanship. It's also not a violation of a single rule of tourney poker (in most rooms) and even cash games in many casinos and if a player feels it helps he/she get a read then go for it. Of course I don't like all the talk but don't criticize the guy, some people prefer to think out loud. Either way, not an angle shoot.

DICLAIMER: I NEVER GO WITH THAT MOVE. JUST STATING THAT MANY PLAYERS (Including a man who is arguably the "greatest" NL hold em player of all time) DO CONSIDER IT A SMART, USEFUL STRATEGY.

Good luck,
Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wondering if you could tell me a few more of these "many" players. Also Doyle wrote that book how long ago, have you watched him play lately and seen him do that, I doubt he even does that in the big game.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taken from http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/rules_JG.asp:

" A Participant may not show any cards during a hand. If a Participant shows a card to induce action, the hand may be ruled dead. "

I thought it was standard that exposing cards kills the hand since the WSOP does it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is not standard. In fact, (as one poster quoted above_), the TDA rules explicitly state that the hand is not dead. And in the example above showing the cards can not be to induce action since the other player is already all-in, so the rule you quote would not apply.

In fact I think the rule you quote has very limited aplicability, since exposing of cards is more often to get a read on a player than to induce action.

--Zetack

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

If someone uses Doyle as an excuse for this move say the same thing I say when someone calls a bunch of pre-flop raises with T2o and use Doyle as an excuse: "You're not Doyle."

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

this may be a play by the offender but more than likely he acted out of turn and left the decision up to the SB to bet any amount he could. He exposed his hand and this could have been very costly for him, luckily he was winning

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These kind of theatrics make for great TV so if you're on the WTP or WSOP then go for it. Otherwise, think silently and fold or call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Haha it's also successfully, and admittedly, been used by one of the most successful and by far most popular high stakes player of all time (I think his name's Doyle or something) for decades. So don't make it out to be mere showmanship. It's also not a violation of a single rule of tourney poker (in most rooms) and even cash games in many casinos and if a player feels it helps he/she get a read then go for it. Of course I don't like all the talk but don't criticize the guy, some people prefer to think out loud. Either way, not an angle shoot.

DICLAIMER: I NEVER GO WITH THAT MOVE. JUST STATING THAT MANY PLAYERS (Including a man who is arguably the "greatest" NL hold em player of all time) DO CONSIDER IT A SMART, USEFUL STRATEGY.

Good luck,
Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wondering if you could tell me a few more of these "many" players. Also Doyle wrote that book how long ago, have you watched him play lately and seen him do that, I doubt he even does that in the big game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Tical was referencing SS2, which I have not read, but is relativly new.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

[ QUOTE ]
this may be a play by the offender but more than likely he acted out of turn and left the decision up to the SB to bet any amount he could. He exposed his hand and this could have been very costly for him, luckily he was winning

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what happened. SB was ALREADY all-in. Offender did his little speech to find out if offender should call or fold. If Offender turned over the cards and SB indicated that SB beat the hand, Offender would claim "I was trying to fold." But since SB showed weakness, Offender was able to say "I call" at the end.

I would definitely institute a rule making this illegal from now on. Let him win that pot (he did win it because SB mucked). But from now on, you can't show cards until you've verbally called.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

Yes that comes from SS2, but it was originally in SS1 which is how old again? I'm not saying it no longer applies, just pointing out that reference may no longer apply.
Also, as someone pointed out already for me, there is only ONE Doyle Brunson.
To make the point further, Michael Jordan sticks his tongue out and takes off from the foul line to dunk on people, maybe I'll start that too.

Re: Intentionally tabling cards - exposing cards in a tournament
 

These kinds of things are EXACTLY why I love my home game. I would never do it in a "real" tournament, but I do it all the time w/ my friends in our weekly $20 tourney.