Two Plus Two Older Archives - one pair disaster

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11-18-2005 11:00 AM

one pair disaster

Hi,

Stakes: .50$/1$ at PP
Profit after 2,500 Hands: 24$ (1BB/100H)
Profit with one pair: -112$

Is it normal not shwowing a profit with one pair?

Here 2 typcial hands. I know I played them badly. How do I fix it?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls $0.50 (All-In), MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players, 1 all-in)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, BB folds.

River: (14.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, MP2 folds.

River: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

hobbsmann

11-18-2005 11:04 AM

Re: one pair disaster

fold to the river raise in hand 2.

Hand 1 is a little more tricky and I would normally call for piece of mind, but you are rarely ahead after MP2 raises and can probably fold and not lose sleep over it.

TheKentock

11-18-2005 11:08 AM

Re: one pair disaster

I actually don't think you plyed either hand that poorly.

Hand 1 looks fine, I like the raise on the flop to charge some gutshot draws, etc. When you're raised on the river, whaddaya gonna do? Call the bet and get 'em next time.

On hand 2, what did you put SB on? I ask because your flop call could have easily been a raise. Were you planning on raising the turn on a safe card, or were you going to call down? I think a read on SB is important here, as well as on the river. You must evaluate the chance that a King helped his hand. Does he only raise out of the SB with high quality card? If so, I would assume AK and KQ are a big part of his hand range here, not to mention the hearts. I am tempted to check behind.

sean c

11-18-2005 11:27 AM

Re: one pair disaster

Hi nofutures hand one looks good. In hand two i would have probably raised pre flop.

11-18-2005 11:33 AM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
I actually don't think you plyed either hand that poorly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I picked some that were borderline. I'll show you a hand a played badly:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (15.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (27.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 27.25 BB

[ QUOTE ]

On hand 2, what did you put SB on? I ask because your flop call could have easily been a raise. Were you planning on raising the turn on a safe card, or were you going to call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was probably thinking not much (enough). I thought my J is probably good and he is likely to have overcards so I call.

sean c

11-18-2005 11:51 AM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually don't think you plyed either hand that poorly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I picked some that were borderline. I'll show you a hand a played badly:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (15.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (27.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 27.25 BB

[ QUOTE ]

On hand 2, what did you put SB on? I ask because your flop call could have easily been a raise. Were you planning on raising the turn on a safe card, or were you going to call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was probably thinking not much (enough). I thought my J is probably good and he is likely to have overcards so I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi nofutures the turn 3-bet is spewy but i really like your flop play and turn lead. No free cards on this board!

In short with the exception of the river call of the raise in #2 and the turn 3-bet in #3 these hands were played well.

Also 2,500 hands is a flea on a dog's ass as far as sample size goes. Stay aggressive and good things will happen.

I forgot raise that pre flop in hand #2 also.

kiemo

11-18-2005 11:55 AM

Re: one pair disaster

Hand 1: You may want to think about waiting till the turn to raise this. On the flop the pot is just way to big to chase out any draws. Good table selection though - 5 cold callers from an UTG raiser, I miss .5/1!

Hand 2: Check behind on the river. That King was not a card you wanted to see and SBs check on the turn means he is not calling with anything you beat.

Hand 3: Once he raises the turn on you, call down. What do you think Button called 4 cold preflop with. Probably isnt 87 or some ragged two pair, unless you have a read on him that would indicate he is an any 2 for any price. Most times with this kind of aggression you are looking a set.

11-18-2005 12:29 PM

Re: one pair disaster

My Stats (just for Party Poker):

Stakes: .50$/1$ at Party Poker
Profit after 3,144 Hands: 187.18$ (+5.95BB/100 Hands)
Profit with one pair: -114.26$

If you are getting your information from the Poker Tracker Misc. Stats tab (as I did), you will notice that it includes all of your hands even the ones that you fold. So if you cold call a small or medium pair for 2 small bets preflop with 4 players sure to be in the raised pot (which you should), then fold it when the flop does not hit your hand -- that goes as a $1 loss. Same if on the small blind you have a pair of 2s and it is raised and reraised before you and you fold it is a $0.25 loss in the pair column. There is a box that you can click called "Show Only Hands That Were Not Folded" that will show what your results are hands you do not fold. For me all of the hands show a profit if I click this box. I wouldn't take this too far because it is definitely possible to fold too much thus showing a profit by clicking the box but being an overall loser because of a tendency to incorrectly fold in big pots. Don't fall into this trap! Call down if the pot is big!

As for the two hands you posted:

Hand 1 is played correctly, and on Hand 2, you probably should have raised on the flop against two players with your top pair to try and define SB's hand a little better (calls with AK, AQ, KQ versus re-raises with a big pair or AJ, for example) and to get more money in the pot from both players if they are on a draw (like they would be with AK or hearts). The turn bet is fine. On the river the King is a scare card with the preflop raiser still in so you might have considered a check/call line (but not necessarily check/ fold).

I wouldn't worry too much about a low (over even negative) win rate over 2500 hands. I just put up my win rate for my Party Poker play. My overall win rate at just under 10,000 hands is +2.19BB/100 Hands and in the middle of that I had a -100$ downswing over 2,259 hands while whoring bonuses at Stars and Paradise (none of the results included in this reply include the bonuses). I think the important thing is to continue playing tight and aggressive preflop and to continue to read and post here to keep fine tuning your post flop play. And remember folding in marginal or scary situations when the pot is big (and usually it's big at Party Poker) is generally wrong.

hustalasta

11-18-2005 01:27 PM

Re: one pair disaster

*grunch*

Hand 1 - I would have played the same, I like that BB bets into me on the flop allowing me to face the field with two bets. The turn is a blank and you have to bet this. The river is somewhat of a scarecard but not enough to make me check through. With the size of this pot on river I am not folding for 1 bet.

Hand 2 - Raise the flop, bet the turn. River is harder, without knowing anything about the villian this is a good spot to check the river as an overcard and a flush card fell. But as you played it... at ten to 1 to call on the river I'm thinking I'm beat but calling anyways.

11-18-2005 01:27 PM

Re: one pair disaster

I think I would raise the flop on the JTs hand. Would that be incorrect?

11-18-2005 02:46 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would raise the flop on the JTs hand. Would that be incorrect?

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs draws most of it's strength from the flushes and straights it makes so it's usually the "more the merrier" with this kind of holding. Even on the button you usually don't want to drive players out. It will win sometimes when it makes top pair but it is easily dominated and (since we always play aggressively) it can be a be big loser as top pair because of the relatively weak kicker. I am not even that happy when I make a JJTT two pair (when a J and T hit the board) because it most of the strongest preflops hands contain two Broadway cards (like AK, AQ, KQ) so we have to fear a straight right to the river.

That's not to say that it is always "incorrect" to raise with JTs. If you are very strong player post flop (I am not nor are most micro-limit players) you sometimes will want to play your opponent instead of your cards so raising with a medium strength holding like this can be raised with plans to "out maneuver" your opponent(s) post flop. Also if you are first in late position it can be used to try and steal the blinds almost as a semi-bluff. If the blinds fold great but seeing the flop isn't the end-of-the-earth either.

11-18-2005 03:01 PM

Re: one pair disaster

re two hands, played okay, except possibly the river, where i would have checked and called...

in a .50/1.00 game i doubt many folks are going to get bluffed out on the river--and as i recall from reading Phil Gordon's Little Green Book, it usually takes two pair to win a 10 handed game. In the first hand you offered, there were 2 picture cards on the board, so it was possible someone came in with QJ and would have you beat...thus calling seems best...can't recall the second hand--see next post for comment on that one

sean c

11-18-2005 03:05 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would raise the flop on the JTs hand. Would that be incorrect?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise also.

11-18-2005 03:09 PM

Re: one pair disaster

2nd hand...K scare card came on the river...thus i would have checked as well...a King is a card the SB could well have had.

MJL	11-18-2005 03:28 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
fold to the river raise in hand 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thought that we are beat is right but with this scary board they have the perfect bluff opportunity. Im sure we will lose the bet but we only have to be right 1 out of 10 times to make this call correct. I would have ck called the river instead.

bottomset

11-18-2005 03:29 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
Stakes: .50$/1$ at PP
Profit after 2,500 Hands: 24$ (1BB/100H)
Profit with one pair: -112$

[/ QUOTE ]

a. don't worry about tiny samples like this
b. click the only show hands that you didn't fold box, in the top right corner of the misc stats page .. if over a large sample you are still losing with 1pair, you are either running absolutely terrible or grossly misplaying your 1pair hands, most likely the mid/bottompair hands .. and its far more likely to be bad play, and not running bad .. if the sample is a decent size

MJL	11-18-2005 03:32 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
Hi nofutures hand one looks good. In hand two i would have probably raised pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

11-18-2005 03:37 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious as to the reasons why you would raise this preflop??

sean c

11-18-2005 03:42 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi nofutures hand one looks good. In hand two i would have probably raised pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a good hand, position, one late position limper which means he is either bad or weak/tight, get rid of the blinds, be the aggressor and give myself a strong chance to win the hand unimproved.

Also we can't check/call the river in hand two since we are last to act so its just a question of whether this is a value bet or not.

MJL	11-18-2005 04:09 PM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
Also we can't check/call the river in hand two since we are last to act so its just a question of whether this is a value bet or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep,messed up on position. I would still ck, betting is -EV.

[ QUOTE ]

Hi nofutures hand one looks good. In hand two i would have probably raised pre flop.

Why?

We have a good hand, position, one late position limper which means he is either bad or weak/tight, get rid of the blinds, be the aggressor and give myself a strong chance to win the hand unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a tight game with good reads and me having a good image this is a quality play but as a rule JTs on the button is great position for a quality drawing hand. I would rather have a couple of players to make it a multiway pot. This is a hand that I want as many players in as possible and pay as little as possible to see the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
be the aggressor and give myself a strong chance to win the hand unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

If our limper is weak/tight (we have no reason to believe it based on the info given) he probably has us beat with an Ax,Kx Qx or PP. Weak tight wont be the first to limp with sm suited connectors. We must get him and the blinds to fold. At this level the BB and most SB usually cold call with anything and the limper will certainly call. What kind of flop would you expect that would miss all so you can push them out?

VBM	11-18-2005 04:18 PM

Re: one pair disaster

i like hand 1. i don't play it any differently. i think you're usually beaten by some raggedy 2 pair or a rivered straight, but HU, u may win a little more than one out 14 of these.

hand 2, i raise preflop. from there, it sort of depends how SB plays and if he 3-bets out of the SB.

sean c

11-18-2005 04:24 PM

Re: one pair disaster

Hi mjl the river bet in hand two is not clearly -ev thin yes clearly -ev no.When in doubt i usually bet.

As far as the pre flop raise goes call it an iso raise or value raise or what ever you want but the fact is we have alot of things in our favor( i listed them in my above reply to you) which i think makes this a raise. I also probably raise more pre flop than most but i like being the aggressor when i am in a hand especially when i have position.

11-20-2005 10:08 AM

Re: one pair disaster

[ QUOTE ]
I forgot raise that pre flop in hand #2 also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that?

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