A flop question
 

Party poker 2/4. No reads.

Pre flop: folds to co who open limps, button calls, sb completes and i check in the bb with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop( 4 players 4sb): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
sb checks, i????

bet or check and why?

Re: A flop question
 

I'd check/fold. It may not be right with your gutter & overcards, but if it's not, it's close. Maybe it's weak, but in general, I'm leery of CO open limpers at $2/$4 and up. It's sort of expected that the CO and/or button open raises (or folds) most (if not all) hands. With no read, we have no reason to believe he has us crushed, but I see it quite often & would tend to not fight for this one (unless I see a free turn & improve).

Feel free to show me why this hand in stronger than I think it is.

Re: A flop question
 

WIth no reads I'm checking. I might call a bet if there are other callers and it's only one back, especially if I'm closing the action.

Re: A flop question
 

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Maybe it's weak, but in general, I'm leery of CO open limpers at $2/$4 and up. It's sort of expected that the CO and/or button open raises (or folds) most (if not all) hands.

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I think you should consider a openlimp in CO as a weak hand made by a not so great player.

Re: A flop question
 

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Maybe it's weak, but in general, I'm leery of CO open limpers at $2/$4 and up. It's sort of expected that the CO and/or button open raises (or folds) most (if not all) hands.

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I think you should consider a openlimp in CO as a weak hand made by a not so great player.

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Re: A flop question
 

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Maybe it's weak, but in general, I'm leery of CO open limpers at $2/$4 and up. It's sort of expected that the CO and/or button open raises (or folds) most (if not all) hands.

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I think you should consider a openlimp in CO as a weak hand made by a not so great player.

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Without question this should be the read. There are tons of bad players at 2/4 and even more weak tight ones.

What are your flop thoughts nick?

Re: A flop question
 

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WIth no reads I'm checking. I might call a bet if there are other callers and it's only one back, especially if I'm closing the action.

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Hi vibesman how much should we be discounting our overcard outs here?

Re: A flop question
 

I'm thinking only about one out each for the overs, due to domination possibilities, the 8s could make someone a straight, and the J or 8 of spades could make someone a flush. One out each might be generous. Adding in the gutshot and backdoor flush draws are the only real reason I see a possibility to peel here. As I said though, I would need a bit more padding. I think I'd peel it off getting about 6-1 if I could be fairly certain that I wouldn't be raised behind.

Re: A flop question
 

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I'm thinking only about one out each for the overs, due to domination possibilities, the 8s could make someone a straight, and the J or 8 of spades could make someone a flush. One out each might be generous. Adding in the gutshot and backdoor flush draws are the only real reason I see a possibility to peel here. As I said though, I would need a bit more padding. I think I'd peel it off getting about 6-1 if I could be fairly certain that I wouldn't be raised behind.

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Nicely done vibesman thanks.

Re: A flop question
 

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Maybe it's weak, but in general, I'm leery of CO open limpers at $2/$4 and up. It's sort of expected that the CO and/or button open raises (or folds) most (if not all) hands.

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I think you should consider a openlimp in CO as a weak hand made by a not so great player.

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I guess without checking my DB, I shouldn't really say what I do in spots like this. Perhaps I fear a strong hand, perhaps not. What the CO has in this hand is irrelevant to me. Had they raised & it folded to me, I'd have folded anyway. Since I saw the flop for free & totally missed, I'd still check & most likely fold (unless like Vibesman said, it's one to me with 2-3 more bets in).

Lets change the flop
 

Okay no one likes a bet here with our 7.5 outer oop but lets change this up a little.

1) if last to act and checked to would you bet? If so why?

2) Make the flop A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would you bet here and why?

Re: Lets change the flop
 

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Okay no one likes a bet here with our 7.5 outer oop but lets change this up a little.

1) if last to act and checked to would you bet? If so why?


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Yes, because even if I get called it increases the possibility of my getting a free card on the turn.

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2) Make the flop A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would you bet here and why?

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I'd rather check, hope again that it gets bet at and called in all spots so I can raise for value. I don't like betting, because if the player right after has aces and raises, he hurts our odds.

Re: A flop question
 

bbeeeettttt. The flop came all low cards and thus is likely to have missed limping hands held by CO and button. Since you have a probable clean overcard to your gutshot you have essentially 7-8 outs which is plently to warrent leading here. We can all agree that hero should lead an OESD 4 handed out of the blinds right? Why is this hand any different? Furthermore, you have enough equity in this pot that getting called is not horrible. Set yourself up to win this pot unimproved.

Re: A flop question
 

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bbeeeettttt. The flop came all low cards and thus is likely to have missed limping hands held by CO and button. Since you have a probable clean overcard to your gutshot you have essentially 7-8 outs which is plently to warrent leading here. We can all agree that hero should lead an OESD 4 handed out of the blinds right? Why is this hand any different? Furthermore, you have enough equity in this pot that getting called is not horrible. Set yourself up to win this pot unimproved.

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Hey hobbs nice post and we finally have a bet vote. I guess my only arguements are the pot is small and we are oop which could make this pot tough to win ui against what looks to be weak passive opponents.

Re: A flop question
 

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bbeeeettttt. The flop came all low cards and thus is likely to have missed limping hands held by CO and button. Since you have a probable clean overcard to your gutshot you have essentially 7-8 outs which is plently to warrent leading here. We can all agree that hero should lead an OESD 4 handed out of the blinds right? Why is this hand any different? Furthermore, you have enough equity in this pot that getting called is not horrible. Set yourself up to win this pot unimproved.

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Hey hobbs nice post and we finally have a bet vote. I guess my only arguements are the pot is small and we are oop which could make this pot tough to win ui against what looks to be weak passive opponents.

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The issue here is going to depend strongly on reads. Are these the weak passives that fold a lot of flops? Peel a lot of flops only to fold turns? Always go to showdown? Against an unknown my default line is to bet, but if I think I have no FE then it is a clear check and peel.

Re: A flop question
 

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bbeeeettttt. The flop came all low cards and thus is likely to have missed limping hands held by CO and button. Since you have a probable clean overcard to your gutshot you have essentially 7-8 outs which is plently to warrent leading here. We can all agree that hero should lead an OESD 4 handed out of the blinds right? Why is this hand any different? Furthermore, you have enough equity in this pot that getting called is not horrible. Set yourself up to win this pot unimproved.

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Hey hobbs nice post and we finally have a bet vote. I guess my only arguements are the pot is small and we are oop which could make this pot tough to win ui against what looks to be weak passive opponents.

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The issue here is going to depend strongly on reads. Are these the weak passives that fold a lot of flops? Peel a lot of flops only to fold turns? Always go to showdown? Against an unknown my default line is to bet, but if I think I have no FE then it is a clear check and peel.

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Hi Hobbs this was from a hand this morning and i wasn't paying much attention to the table. I hate not giving good reads in my posts but i honestly didn't have any. The table as a whole was very weak passive, few pre flop raises and not many big pots or showdowns but i have no specific reads. I would guess i some FE here but on the flip side the board is pretty draw heavy with both SD and FD possibilities. So i was pretty torn as to what the correct move was when the action was on me. I will say i gave myself more outs on the fly than i probably should have if i had put some thought behind it.

Re: A flop question
 

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bbeeeettttt. The flop came all low cards and thus is likely to have missed limping hands held by CO and button. Since you have a probable clean overcard to your gutshot you have essentially 7-8 outs which is plently to warrent leading here. We can all agree that hero should lead an OESD 4 handed out of the blinds right? Why is this hand any different? Furthermore, you have enough equity in this pot that getting called is not horrible. Set yourself up to win this pot unimproved.

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Hey hobbs nice post and we finally have a bet vote. I guess my only arguements are the pot is small and we are oop which could make this pot tough to win ui against what looks to be weak passive opponents.

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The issue here is going to depend strongly on reads. Are these the weak passives that fold a lot of flops? Peel a lot of flops only to fold turns? Always go to showdown? Against an unknown my default line is to bet, but if I think I have no FE then it is a clear check and peel.

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I agree it's read dependent. We just have different defaults w/o reads. Since the pot is so small, I don't like commiting too much. If I bet out, I'm seeing the turn, and could end up having to call a raise on the flop and be heads up, I don't want that.

I also don't think this is quite as strong as an OESD (I gave it about 7 outs), mainly because an OESD is 8 rock-solid outs usually, and this hand even some of our straight outs are shaky.

Re: A flop question
 

grunch:

I check/call here. You got 4 outs to a straight one of which might not be good, maybe count 1 out to back door flush draw that's not the nuts, and possibly count 3 outs for your overs. That gives you at most 8 outs for odds of 4.8:1 with pot odds of 4:1.

If you had reads, you might be able to assume implied odds are in your favor. Bet out if you think you'll get folds/calls and reevaluate on the turn.

Re: A flop question
 

:grunch: I would check/call because you don't want it raised behind you and end up HU.

Re: A flop question
 

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Party poker 2/4. No reads.

Pre flop: folds to co who open limps, button calls, sb completes and i check in the bb with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop( 4 players 4sb): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
sb checks, i????

bet or check and why?

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Hmmmm... It's similar to this flop bet (ignore the fact that I got raised) that I posted a while ago. Entity made some interesting comments, and I'm pretty sure betting is neutral EV.

In this case, however, I think I lean more towards a check because there are more villains in the pot. You would like to take this down immediately. You also might get called by a flush draw and STILL be chasing in the hand.

Results
 

Hey Aaron W thanks for the post and link. This has been up all day so i am going to play this out. I am not being results oriented here but it was a hand that confussed me and even though i am leaning towards check i am still not completely convinced.

Flop(4 players 4sb): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
sb checks, i check, co checks, button bets, sb check/raises, i fold, co folds and button calls.

Turn(2 players 4bb): 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
sb bets and button folds.

Also thanks to everyone who replied to this one especially vibesman and hobbs who i felt gave compelling counter arguements.