this one came up at dinner...
 

is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

I think it's pretty damn close. While one can argue that religion is at least a conscious choice, the frequency with which people believe whatever their parents believe suggests pretty strongly that the childhood indoctrination is forceful.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

I think there's a difference.

If there's a religion that, let's take something extreme, demands of it's followers to slowly torture little girls of not older then 7 to death I don't see any problem with saying that I hate all of their followers based on the fact that they are members of that religion.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a difference.

If there's a religion that, let's take something extreme, demands of it's followers to slowly torture little girls of not older then 7 to death I don't see any problem with saying that I hate all of their followers based on the fact that they are members of that religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

One could argue that would be a cult, not a religion. Mind you I have always had a difficulty in distinguishing the two. It's sort of like terrorists and freedom fighters.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
is being inherently suspiciousof someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being inherently suspicious of someone due to their race ?

[/ QUOTE ] absolutely not. Race gives one very little insight as to somebodies charecter, religious beliefs reveal alot more about an individual. I think hate is kinda strong, but i guess i'd apply the same logic to that statement, and say it's not as bad. I don't think there is even an argument here. One thing is almost entirely superficial, and the other likely plays a large role in how the hate'ee acts.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

I would say hating someone due to their belief system would be far more logically and morally justifiable than hating them because of their race.

We can probably claim that a person's chosen religion would tell us more about an individual than what race the person is born into. Hence, if we happen to have a great dislike for that particular belief we could logically infer that we do not like this person because 'he believes and follows something I hate'.

It isn't really important if it involves torture of children or baptising children. That would just be an argument that 'justifies' the original question in light of typical everyday western values. What logically matters is you base your hatred on knowledge of what the person believes in, not prejudice of what the person may be.

On the other hand, in practical everyday life we all known hatred due to religion and hatred due to race mostly go hand in hand.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

Correct, one is (superficially) regarding their appearance and one is regarding there opinions. There is no decision on which one of the two is correct for forming an opinion of someone else, whether negative or positive.

(note. I added "superficially" in brackets after writing the above because I realised you can correctly make reasonable assumptions (% plays, not 100% correct) based on appearances eg. fat people are lazy, and do not take pride in themselves. Assuming oriental poker players are more likely to be gamblers is not wrong.)

It would definitely depend on why you hated them and whether the correlation was strong. eg If you said:

"I hate xxxx because they are closed minded and gullible."

If you fill in "blacks" I would consider that unreasonable, but if you fill in "Christians" I wouldnt be concerned.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Correct, one is (superficially) regarding their appearance and one is regarding there opinions. There is no decision on which one of the two is correct for forming an opinion of someone else, whether negative or positive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of course if I were to grab any two random self-described Christians, they would have extremely similar opinions about everything.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

"I hate xxxx because they are closed minded and gullible."

If you fill in "blacks" I would consider that unreasonable, but if you fill in "Christians" I wouldnt be concerned.

Why? I realize religion is a choice and race isn't, but aren't you making the same collective judment about individuals in both cases?

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's fair to infer character from beliefs. To believe its fair to infer character from race is to be racist.

So only a racist thinks the two are equivalent.

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's fair to infer character from beliefs. To believe its fair to infer character from race is to be racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pithy, but pretty incomplete. While I agree with your earlier statement, do you think that you can really infer beliefs entirely from religion (or, more accurately, beliefs that are outside the spiritual context of the religion itself)? Within any given religion I think there is an incredibly wide range of behaviors and character. So to infer beliefs from religion seems quite narrow minded.

Furthermore, do you think there is zero correlation between race and beliefs? I think this is pretty obviously untrue. For example, there's a high correlation between being ethnically Jewish (we can debate whether or not this is a race, but for the purposes of this argument I think it's close enough) and being a practicing Jew. This kind of leaves you in the position of having to either accept that there can be racial correlations, or that the religious correlations need not be that significant.

There is clearly more basis for the religious intolerance than the racial one, but I think people are being a little smug about how high-minded they are here.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's fair to infer character from beliefs. To believe its fair to infer character from race is to be racist.

So only a racist thinks the two are equivalent.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

You surprised me with this one, chez.

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's fair to infer character from beliefs. To believe its fair to infer character from race is to be racist.

So only a racist thinks the two are equivalent.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

You surprised me with this one, chez.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? I though you agreed that people bring their morality to their beliefs. Someone who believes I will go to hell because I don't share their belief is telling me a lot about them.

Noticing someones race is telling me very little about them. Infering they are likely to have some belief or behave in a certain way because there is a correlation between people of that race and that belief/behavior is racist.

Maye some confusion because by their religon, I mean what they believe not being nominally a member of some religon.

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

It's fair to infer character from beliefs.

The 9/11 hijackers were muslims who believed they were doing God's work. Personally, I think it's as bad as being a racist to infer that *all* muslims share similar character traits with those 19.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

Hopefully my answer to RJT meakes what I said clearer.

I don't disagree with what you say but I didn't say anything different.
I wasn't suggesting the inference from belief to character is reliable or strong but it does exist and refers directly to the person who has the beliefs.

and I'm not suggesting there is no correlation between race an beliefs, but what do you mean by racist if you don't mean judging an individual by a supposed correlation between their race and some belief.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... but I think people are being a little smug about how high-minded they are here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I was being judgemental at all, so I'm not sure where any mindedness comes in, let alone highness of it.

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

Is everyone here happy with the idea of inferring certain traits but knowing you won't always be right.

X just makes Y more likely.

It is perfectly logical to generalise, insurance company's do it all the time to maximise profit and efficiency.

It doesn't mean, as someone suggested, that show me two Christians and I expect they will have the same personalities. It does mean I can make certain guesses about their personalities that maybe correct and are worthwhile assuming with no other information.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's fair to infer character from beliefs.

The 9/11 hijackers were muslims who believed they were doing God's work. Personally, I think it's as bad as being a racist to infer that *all* muslims share similar character traits with those 19.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, you miunderstood if you think I said anything to the contrary.

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
very little, but if he tells me what his relious beliefs are I would infer quite a lot.

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

The point is that either both are acceptable or both aren't. I think the natural course of action is to make generalizations (which is pretty difficult to avoid) but be flexible in reassessing them based on your interactions with particular people.

Your style and phrasing were awfully provocative for somebody who is non-judgmental in this matter. I also think you're trying to weasel out a bit here; it's pretty clear that the point of this thread was snap judgments based on religious identification, rather than an assessment of people's character based on knowledge of their specific beliefs, which are quite different things.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
very little, but if he tells me what his relious beliefs are I would infer quite a lot.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess its likely that he is closed minded and/or doesn't have the wherewithall to question his own belief systems, or he has not been in a situation where has been able to do that, he may then be interested in reasoned education and discussion.

It won't always be right , but its not an unfair generalisation.

Edit: I'm freerolling here (like a good fairground psychic) because I just realised those traits are true of most of the Western general public.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
very little, but if he tells me what his relious beliefs are I would infer quite a lot.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

Ok then, my answer to the OP is: purple.

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

I can infer that the person is, at least to some significant degree, irrational.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

I can infer that the person is, at least to some significant degree, irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

BBM,

(Whether what you infer is valid or not is moot to the OP.)


So, is hating someone solely due to the fact that his is irrational "just as bad as" being racist?

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate republicans - am I a racist?

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

I can infer that the person is, at least to some significant degree, irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

BBM,

(Whether what you infer is valid or not is moot to the OP.)


So, is hating someone solely due to the fact that his is irrational "just as bad as" being racist?

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

To "hate" someone for being irrational is irrational. So is being racist. (Note I did not say I hate people for being irrational and/or Christian.) Negative moral judgment ("hate") should only be in response to those who act, by some definition, immorally, or for those who sanction immoral acts.

I do claim acting immorally requires at some level irrationality. However, the converse is not true: being irrational does not imply acting immorally, though it makes it possible or more likely.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chez,

Next time someone says to you he is a Christian (and that only, which is the question), you tell me what you (can) infer.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

I can infer that the person is, at least to some significant degree, irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

BBM,

(Whether what you infer is valid or not is moot to the OP.)


So, is hating someone solely due to the fact that his is irrational "just as bad as" being racist?

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

To "hate" someone for being irrational is irrational. So is being racist. (Note I did not say I hate people for being irrational and/or Christian.) Negative moral judgment ("hate") should only be in response to those who act, by some definition, immorally, or for those who sanction immoral acts.

I do claim acting immorally requires at some level irrationality. However, the converse is not true: being irrational does not imply acting immorally, though it makes it possible or more likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

BBM,

I understood you and that you did not say you hate someone who is irrational.

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that either both are acceptable or both aren't. I think the natural course of action is to make generalizations (which is pretty difficult to avoid) but be flexible in reassessing them based on your interactions with particular people.

Your style and phrasing were awfully provocative for somebody who is non-judgmental in this matter. I also think you're trying to weasel out a bit here; it's pretty clear that the point of this thread was snap judgments based on religious identification, rather than an assessment of people's character based on knowledge of their specific beliefs, which are quite different things.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not weasling out of anything, I'm quite capable of being provocative without being judgemental.

All I've done it explain what was meant by my original pithy response and whilst its true that snap judgements are weak in both cases, you can see the difference as the information gets better. The more I know about a particular persons religous beliefs the more I can infer about their character. The more I know about their mix of blood and racial ancestry ...???

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

I think hate is a strong word. If you hate someone based on what religion they choose, It's probably "as bad as" hating someone because of thier race. But I think you can get away with hating someone that has a religion, where as you can't get away with hating on someone that has a race. If we are speaking as americans, it's being encouraged to hate muslims in popular culture. So if you are one that came to your conclusion from pressure, than it's just as bad. But if you have studied the religion, and found that certain beliefs are deserving of hate, then it's ok to hate someone soley based off of religion. There is a big difference between hating someone because of what they believe and hating someone becasue of what race they are. But the blind hatred of someone becuase of thier religion, which is what i think you are refering to, is "just as bad".

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say almost, but not quite. 1) it's not good to hate people, and 2) most people don't choose their religion.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. You choose you religion. Hell, you could describe the Nazi Party as a religion rather than political party if you want.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

doug,

[ QUOTE ]
But the blind hatred of someone becuase of thier religion, which is what i think you are refering to…

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what he is asking. I should say, that is how the question is posed.

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a difference.

If there's a religion that, let's take something extreme, demands of it's followers to slowly torture little girls of not older then 7 to death I don't see any problem with saying that I hate all of their followers based on the fact that they are members of that religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting example, but it also depends on if they're practicing members or not. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
doug,

[ QUOTE ]
But the blind hatred of someone becuase of thier religion, which is what i think you are refering to…

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what he is asking. I should say, that is how the question is posed.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah I wasn't sure what the OP was asking exactly so I fummbled around it a bit. At least one of my statements answered the question.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
doug,

[ QUOTE ]
But the blind hatred of someone becuase of thier religion, which is what i think you are refering to…

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what he is asking. I should say, that is how the question is posed.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see I may have missed the point of the OP but if the question is which sort of blind hatred is worse then I am at a bit of a loss as to how the conversation lasted long enough for anyone to notice it was happening.

I gather you realise that is not the question I was answering?

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
doug,

[ QUOTE ]
But the blind hatred of someone becuase of thier religion, which is what i think you are refering to…

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what he is asking. I should say, that is how the question is posed.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see I may have missed the point of the OP but if the question is which sort of blind hatred is worse then I am at a bit of a loss as to how the conversation lasted long enough for anyone to notice it was happening.

I gather you realise that is not the question I was answering?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

Sure did, buddy. That is why I threw in my little humor about then my answer is: purple. I figured if you were going to answer a question that wasn't asked, then I would too.

RJT

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

I disagree here. I think people are getting their emotions in the way of the original question. Is hating someone because of their belief 'just as bad' as hating them because of their race.

Ofcourse it isn't. Hating someone because of their belief is logically justifiable, because they may support something you hate.

Hating someone because of their race is not logically justifiable because you will have to generalize presumes traits of that race onto the individual which may be wrong, even if statistics would tell you that this trait is common in that race.

Now...if you hate someone because of traits you presume they have because of their belief...then you are in effect doing the exact same thinking as a racist, and hence you are thinking illogically, even if statistics told you a majority of these believers possessed that trait.

That is also why racism and religious hatred often go hand in hand, because them stem from the same way of thinking.

However, if you quickly think of 10 hated persons from history, you will almost unvariably find that they are generally hated because of 1.) Their belief and 2.) Their tendency to act on it.

You will find few individuals who are hated because of their race.

Hatred due to an object's belief is very human.

And what a person belief consists of is totally irrelevant to the question asked.

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
doug,

[ QUOTE ]
But the blind hatred of someone becuase of thier religion, which is what i think you are refering to…

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what he is asking. I should say, that is how the question is posed.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see I may have missed the point of the OP but if the question is which sort of blind hatred is worse then I am at a bit of a loss as to how the conversation lasted long enough for anyone to notice it was happening.

I gather you realise that is not the question I was answering?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

Sure did, buddy. That is why I threw in my little humor about then my answer is: purple. I figured if you were going to answer a question that wasn't asked, then I would too.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
I only said may have missed the point ...

I like my question more [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

chez

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's pretty clear that the point of this thread was snap judgments based on religious identification, rather than an assessment of people's character based on knowledge of their specific beliefs, which are quite different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% correct, that was the intent of the post

Re: this one came up at dinner...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is hating someone solely due to their religion "just as bad as" being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate republicans - am I a racist?

[/ QUOTE ]


no

"just as bad as" != equal to