JJ, too timid?
 

Typical Hand for me. Am I too timid?

100nl Pokerstars. I'm in small blind($0.50) with JJ.

MP(unknown) raises to $3, I call, everyone else folds.

Pot: $7
Flop: 8 8 4

I bet $3, trying to see were I stand. MP Raises to $7.
I call, thinking that I show some strength with my call on this flop.

Pot: $21
Turn: 2

I check, he bets $15, I fold

What do you think?

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

overpairs suck, and my line(s) are bogus but...

Preflop is $3 a std raise or did you gain some info here?
Flop - I bet the pot with overpairs, top pairs, two pairs, sets in fact anything and everything short of quad A's when OOP. My thoughts are that when you lead into a preflop raiser you have to give a good reason to fold and less than half the pot is just a reason to think he push you off your hand.
On the turn your line continued to smell of weakness so you never get to know if you had the best hand.

Overall I vote yes. too timid. Bet your overpair hard to protect it from opportunistic bluffs and steals. It's easier to let go when a villain repops your pot sized bet and as you were wiling to call his raise on the flop you should seriously have considered betting at least that much to begin with.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

i would fold this pf. he might have AQs.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

You forgot the sarcastic smilie. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

u were kidding right? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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i would fold this pf. he might have AQs.

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could you elaborate.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

Thanks for a well thought trough response. What you say makes sense.
How would you proceed if he just calls your pot sized bet?

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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i would fold this pf. he might have AQs.

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Awesome.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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Pot: $7
Flop: 8 8 4

I bet $3, trying to see were I stand. MP Raises to $7.


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Bet full pot if you want to have ANY idea of where you stand.

If he just calls lead for 1/2 -> 2/3 pot on turn.

If he raises most passive opponents have you beat.

If he's aggro you shouldn't be leading into him.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

I think that what I am afraid is being called down by a bigger pair.

If I was my oppenent and held KK or AA i would just call all the way since on a 8 8 4 flop "the real me" are not likely to have any outs.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

Flop bet is a bit weak. You should've bet closer to the size of the pot.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

If he calls a pot sized flop bet what do you put him on? My guess, he has an overpair too as he raised preflop. AA-QQ and your sunk, TT or 99 and your good. Reads are now important but with none I check the turn and probably fold to a strong bet. I just cant see much that calls here that you beat. The way you played it though is an invitation to steal. Hell now I'm much less certain than I was.


Why this line sucks is clearly that I am OOP with a suspect holding. I bet the pot on the flop and built a pot that it's going to be scary to play. Playing big pots OOP is how you go broke. Don't listen to me, I'm a walking contradiction.

Problem is that if you aren't leading here you might let AK catch a free card to beat you etc. When someone calls it lets you know your situation is likely to be marginal. He thinks his hand is good enough to play and in this case his likely holding is similar to yours. For the average player raising 99 would be unlikely, even TT is often limped in so you are probably beat here if called. Oh what a tangled web.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

I don't understand the fascination with blasting away at pots nonstop. What was the board here? Like 884 rainbow? Betting huge just means you lose more money. If $3 will pick up the pot when the other guy has no hand, then why bet more? Or, if he'll call $3 with hands you beat... then why bet more? Building big pots out of position on ridiculously dry boards with marginal holdings is just chip spewing.

With that said, betting for information makes no sense if your opponent tells you that you have two outs and you go ahead and put more money in the pot.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

I would have bet atleast $5 on the flop.

The less then half pot bet screams "I dont know where I stand"

I like the suggestion of a pot bet is good here.

A solid bet like that OOP, shows strength. Id consider playing back at the $3 with AK in position here, but $7 I quickly decide to not mess around. Wouldnt seem likely a raise would get me anything but trouble.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

NH sir, NH

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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i would fold this pf. he might have AQs.

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

Way too timid. Play lower stakes if your afraid here. Im crammin and jamming this all day all night....

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

If you were going to fold to a bet on the Turn after a blank hit, why would you call the raise on the Flop? Calling that raise meant you think you're ahead. You should have lead out on the Turn. If raised again, you can lay it down.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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I don't understand the fascination with blasting away at pots nonstop. What was the board here? Like 884 rainbow? Betting huge just means you lose more money. If $3 will pick up the pot when the other guy has no hand, then why bet more? Or, if he'll call $3 with hands you beat... then why bet more? Building big pots out of position on ridiculously dry boards with marginal holdings is just chip spewing.

With that said, betting for information makes no sense if your opponent tells you that you have two outs and you go ahead and put more money in the pot.

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Please define marginal holding? Someone opened from MP, and you have JJ? This is marginal? The flop comes down 884, I don't see how you can be so weak tight.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

I would reraised preflop like 8.. I usually reraise pre with JJ just to get some info. If he calls you assume he has overcards, giving you information that your JJ is good. However, if he is a tricky player he could have AA or KK and just call your reraise. With a reraise preflop I think you control of the hand, without a raise you playing blind. I do believe there are some tricky players at 100nl but without a read I'd say you mucked the best hand.
My line would;
Preflop reraise to 8, if he reraises that you can assume AA or KK and safely fold. If he calls assume he has ak or aq, with a small chance he has a monster. Pot is $17
On the flop I would led out with a $13 bet. If he reraises that you can easily fold. If he calls he fairly obvious he has ak or aq and is chasing.

I do play JJ a little more agressive then others because I LAG it up a litte more.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

What if he's got a hand like AK? If you only bet $3 then he's getting the correct price to call. You need to at least bet enough to make it incorrect for him to draw out on you if you're ahead.

Edit: Too timid, yeah.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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I usually reraise pre with JJ just to get some info. If he calls you assume he has overcards, giving you information that your JJ is good. However, if he is a tricky player he could have AA or KK and just call your reraise.

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I do that all the time with AA if the person is agressive, then stack them on a low flop. The LAG can never let his queens go.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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i would fold this pf. he might have AQs.

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MM on AQs vs JJ gets pwned

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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I don't understand the fascination with blasting away at pots nonstop. What was the board here? Like 884 rainbow? Betting huge just means you lose more money. If $3 will pick up the pot when the other guy has no hand, then why bet more? Or, if he'll call $3 with hands you beat... then why bet more? Building big pots out of position on ridiculously dry boards with marginal holdings is just chip spewing.

With that said, betting for information makes no sense if your opponent tells you that you have two outs and you go ahead and put more money in the pot.

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Please define marginal holding? Someone opened from MP, and you have JJ? This is marginal? The flop comes down 884, I don't see how you can be so weak tight.

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How can this be anything but marginal? What gives action that he beats? His opponent raised preflop in what I assume to be a typical low-stakes full-ring rock garden. I'm not thrilled about unimproved JJ.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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What if he's got a hand like AK? If you only bet $3 then he's getting the correct price to call. You need to at least bet enough to make it incorrect for him to draw out on you if you're ahead.

Edit: Too timid, yeah.

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You typically call getting 3:1 with nothing but overcards? Good luck with that.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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Typical Hand for me. Am I too timid?

100nl Pokerstars. I'm in small blind($0.50) with JJ.

MP(unknown) raises to $3, I call,

What do you think?

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Hate it.

Reraise to about $8-10.
If he comes over the top for over $40 muck it.

Why the big reraise?

You are ok with with hand decided now since you will be OOP postflop.

If he calls continuation bet about $20 on the 884 flop.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

Marginal is PP JJ-99. Capable of winning a pot unimproved but not able to withstand any pressure.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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What if he's got a hand like AK? If you only bet $3 then he's getting the correct price to call. You need to at least bet enough to make it incorrect for him to draw out on you if you're ahead.
Edit: Too timid, yeah.

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You typically call getting 3:1 with nothing but overcards? Good luck with that.

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http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1353460
pokenum -h js jd - ah kc -- 8c 8h 4s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4s 8c 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jd 752 75.96 238 24.04 0 0.00 0.760
Kc Ah 238 24.04 752 75.96 0 0.00 0.240

Typically I don't, but if he knew what you had, it would be a correct call.

I just prefer to make a little larger bet in this spot, typically about $5, which is also what I'd bet if I had an 8.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

I don't like this play, but not because you might be timid. You probably are if you have to ask.

If this guy just sat and I have no read then I have no way of interpreting what his bring-in short of the standard 4BB means so it doesn't mean anything.

If I think about calling a raise from the blinds with a pp the first consideration is his stack size. If I'm going to call $3 then I want to win a min. of $36 if I flop a set.

When I don't make a set, I've got marginal JJ, the board is paired, and I'm playing a complete unknown OOP and only 7BB in the pot I've pretty much lost interest in this hand. I'm definitely not leading into the raiser. I check and see what happens. Probably fold to a bet. However, I reserve the right to play poker. I can change my mind and check-raise with a big semi-bluff if I feel like its a good play. But probably not doing this here.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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I don't understand the fascination with blasting away at pots nonstop. What was the board here? Like 884 rainbow? Betting huge just means you lose more money. If $3 will pick up the pot when the other guy has no hand, then why bet more? Or, if he'll call $3 with hands you beat... then why bet more? Building big pots out of position on ridiculously dry boards with marginal holdings is just chip spewing.

With that said, betting for information makes no sense if your opponent tells you that you have two outs and you go ahead and put more money in the pot.

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Please define marginal holding? Someone opened from MP, and you have JJ? This is marginal? The flop comes down 884, I don't see how you can be so weak tight.

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How can this be anything but marginal? What gives action that he beats? His opponent raised preflop in what I assume to be a typical low-stakes full-ring rock garden. I'm not thrilled about unimproved JJ.

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I do partially agree that nothing will give him action other than hands that he's losing to, I believe that you're giving too much credit to low stakes ring game players. Additionally, I don't believe that the words 'typical low-stakes' and 'rock garden' are in any way related.

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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What if he's got a hand like AK? If you only bet $3 then he's getting the correct price to call. You need to at least bet enough to make it incorrect for him to draw out on you if you're ahead.
Edit: Too timid, yeah.

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You typically call getting 3:1 with nothing but overcards? Good luck with that.

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http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1353460
pokenum -h js jd - ah kc -- 8c 8h 4s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4s 8c 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jd 752 75.96 238 24.04 0 0.00 0.760
Kc Ah 238 24.04 752 75.96 0 0.00 0.240

Typically I don't, but if he knew what you had, it would be a correct call.

I just prefer to make a little larger bet in this spot, typically about $5, which is also what I'd bet if I had an 8.

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You realize you can't count on him giving you the turn AND river for $3 right?

Re: JJ, too timid?
 

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Typically I don't, but if he knew what you had, it would be a correct call.

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No. You only get to see one card for that price. It's only correct is opponent is all in.