Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Hero is SB and has JJ

Mid position player raises, Button reraises, Hero ????????

This is .5/1 Full Ring. NO reads as I just sat down one hand ago

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

From Tight Games PF Recommendations, SSHE page 80:

"Reraise: AA-TT, AKs, and AK"

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Cap it!

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Cap it, this is a position play.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Assuming no reads, I'd go to my default play which is playing super tight after a 3-bet. (that means fold)

In fact, even if I knew these players to be loose and wacky, even donks can pick up big hands, and playing a relatively weak pocket pair out of position spells -EV.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Wha?

Position as in terrible and unprofitable, yes

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming no reads, I'd go to my default play which is playing super tight after a 3-bet. (that means fold)

In fact, even if I knew these players to be loose and wacky, even donks can pick up big hands, and playing a relatively weak pocket pair out of position spells -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this line and I folded.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
From Tight Games PF Recommendations, SSHE page 80:

"Reraise: AA-TT, AKs, and AK"

[/ QUOTE ]

A little further down on the same page it says:

Against a raise and re-raise:
Play:AA-QQ and AKs
Reraise:AA-QQ and AKs

Keeping that in mind. I call. If the flop comes up blank, I c/r and see what happens. This play probably bleeds money.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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This play probably bleeds money.

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lol, was that you just shatting on your own advice?

it does bleed money, we don't need to force ourselves into marginal situations. We get profitable plays smacking us in the face all the time, so to jump into sticky situations with c/r's and bluffs.....why begin a hand behind the 8-ball? Personally I like to enter hands in GOOD shape [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Cap it. There are only three hands that are ahead of you right now.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

This is a tough one. At the micro-limits there are LAGs that will reraise on the button with any Broadway and you would want to cap it against this kind of player.

There are also certain "imaginative" (usually good post-flop) players that will try to isolate a preflop raiser with many different hands (including just a medium pair) and then out play them heads up from superior position (so this is done especially from the button). A cap preflop from another player usually sets up an undesirable situation for them and they will give it up post-flop unimproved if the capper shows strength.

Of course, most micro players who reraise, even on the button, are neither LAGgy nor imaginative (I'm not [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) and the "good" ones will play by the "book", so in the absence of reads and being in the worst position post flop a fold is probably correct.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

I fold it - OOP I suspect capping it is very -EV

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Just call it. But be prepared to fold on the flop.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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Just call it. But be prepared to fold on the flop.

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When I folded, it seemed like an easy fold for me. Flop came 5/5/J.....I then re-evaluated this fold.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Isn't that to results orientated? How often is that going to happen?

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming no reads, I'd go to my default play which is playing super tight after a 3-bet. (that means fold)

In fact, even if I knew these players to be loose and wacky, even donks can pick up big hands, and playing a relatively weak pocket pair out of position spells -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this time, you have 4th best hand possible. The flop should dictate play, but I'm loving the action here with Jacks.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

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I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

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I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

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In Microlimits people make very bad plays preflop.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

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I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

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Correctamundo. In fact it would be pretty bad to fold this in a higher limit game because the button 3-bet is frequently an isolation play. A 3-bet from any position from a typical .5/1 player is no joke (with the possible exception of blind vs. blind play)

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

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In Microlimits people make very bad plays preflop.

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The most common bad plays they make are
A) calling when they should fold
B) calling when they should raise

Raising & 3-betting with junk is a rare mistake made by a rare player that is no more common at .5/1 than it is anywhere else.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Microlimits people make very bad plays preflop.

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Yes, like only 3-betting with QQ-AA

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Microlimits people make very bad plays preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, like only 3-betting with QQ-AA

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this post is much better than mine - touche.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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In Microlimits, there is no way im folding this, unless i have specific reads on the players who raise. Im either calling or capping. Probably capping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this "in microlimits" stuff. Microlimits are passive. If you're not folding it at .5/1 then you're not folding it anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Microlimits people make very bad plays preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, like only 3-betting with QQ-AA

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That's odd, usually i find a lot of superagressive players at these limits whose range of 3betting is much much wider than that, probably just me and my luck though.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

No one has yet mentioned just calling to see if the original PFR caps or just calls. I like that the best.

Without a solid read, i'm never folding here.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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Wha?

Position as in terrible and unprofitable, yes

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Position play by the button. Understand a reply before you flame it.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

The other thing to consider is that this was at Absolute and the play is hella tight at that site. If this was at Party/Paradise I'm calling any day of the week that ends in y.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

The 3-better is on the button. His 3-betting range is much wider than AA-QQ. I would say, AA-TT, (even 99 for some players), AKs-AJs, KQs, AK, and maybe AQo if he's bad, (this is the micro's, right?)

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

I have never played .5/1 so take this fwiw but this is a pretty read based decision but its between capping and calling without a read. All this fold your dominated or this can't be played profitably is wrong IMO. We have one of the best starting hands and great relative position on the pre flop 3-bettor. If the flop is bad for us we should be able to get away from this pot pretty easily. If we get a good flop there is a strong chance we will have the best hand. Then there is the rare times we are dominated and lose some chips it happens. If you want to fold this because you just sat down and don't want get into a marginal situation until you have a better read on the players at he table fine but this "your dominated and can't play this profitably" is nonsense.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming no reads, I'd go to my default play which is playing super tight after a 3-bet. (that means fold)

In fact, even if I knew these players to be loose and wacky, even donks can pick up big hands, and playing a relatively weak pocket pair out of position spells -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Relatively weak pocket pair" Wha?

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have never played .5/1 so take this fwiw but this is a pretty read based decision but its between capping and calling without a read. All this fold your dominated or this can't be played profitably is wrong IMO. We have one of the best starting hands and great relative position on the pre flop 3-bettor. If the flop is bad for us we should be able to get away from this pot pretty easily. If we get a good flop there is a strong chance we will have the best hand. Then there is the rare times we are dominated and lose some chips it happens. If you want to fold this because you just sat down and don't want get into a marginal situation until you have a better read on the players at he table fine but this "your dominated and can't play this profitably" is nonsense.

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I would compare online .5/1 to a live 2/4 or 3/6 game. Most of the players have the mentality of not putting in much money preflop with hands that they might not be able to see a river with, which explains cold calling rather than 3-betting with hands like AKo and JJ. You might just be up against 2 more aggro than typical players here, but even then your equity probably isn't huge.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

Hi mainevent did you clean up after i left last night?

To the hand in question marginal yes unprofitable though i will not agree with. Like i said a read would really help.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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Hi mainevent did you clean up after i left last night?

To the hand in question marginal yes unprofitable though i will not agree with. Like i said a read would really help.

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I'm gonna change my answer on this one. I think I would fold if I had seen the guy go even 1 orbit without doing anything out of line. If it's really my very first hand at the table and I have no reads of any kind I'll play.

Who were you? You can PM if you don't want to say on here. I ended up with a $0.25 profit, which is awesome for a 2+2 game.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

maybe you dont want to cap but there is NO way you can fold.

too many WPT fanbois see people pushing all in with A8, and they want to 3 bet with it PF in limit games now.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

It's not a terribly easy cap.

I like coldcalling here, honestly.

I think folding would probably be a mistake, though not by very much.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 3-better is on the button. His 3-betting range is [...], and maybe AQo if he's bad, (this is the micro's, right?)

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lmao

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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Cap it. There are only three hands that are ahead of you right now.

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Your logic is pretty damn awful. It's as if you're saying that both the raiser and the threebettor have random hands, and since you have a tremendous equity edge over two random hands this is an easy cap.

For one thing they both have far from random hands.

For another thing you are out of position, which influences your postflop equity (ie your ability to "outplay" them after the flop, which is even more compromised in a huge pot).

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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The other thing to consider is that this was at Absolute and the play is hella tight at that site. If this was at Party/Paradise I'm calling any day of the week that ends in y.

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Nice game selection.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Correctamundo. In fact it would be pretty bad to fold this in a higher limit game because the button 3-bet is frequently an isolation play. A 3-bet from any position from a typical .5/1 player is no joke (with the possible exception of blind vs. blind play)

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You're rigth. I wouldn't even come close to considering this a fold in the party 10/20 6max (where I play).

But I still don't see how that translates into this being a fold. Lower limits = more randomness to play. Whereas at the higher limits you will often see A9o first in and 77 threebetting, at .50/1.00 you might very well see JTo first in and 22 threebetting.

Re: Pocket Jacks in SB facing a 3 bet. Call or fold?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
The other thing to consider is that this was at Absolute and the play is hella tight at that site. If this was at Party/Paradise I'm calling any day of the week that ends in y.

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Nice game selection.

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What can I say? Never ending bonus that I clear an average of $400 a month 3 tabling plus poker profits. How many are taking home 5 grand a year at the micros?