I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

So I got into a situation tonight and I don't think I acted so horribly but another player was extremely unhappy.

Anyway, this is a live 10/20 half kill game. Its 6 handed and I pick up KK in the SB. The half-kill is mine.

The Cut off and I have played two hands recently. One the board paired jacks on the flop, and he got unlucky. I had AJ, he had some worse jack, I dont' know, he folded to my river bet after I 4 bet the turn. On another recent hand I sucked out with second pair to his top pair, having caught trips on the river. He didn't bet the turn so that's on him.

This has generally been a friendly game. Its aggressive, to be sure, but friendly nonetheless.

So, he opens for $30 in the CO. I make it $45 in the SB. He makes it $60, and I just call.

The flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I lead. He raises. I 3-bet. He calls.

The turn is the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Given our history and the way he's played prior hands with me and others, I decide to check-call the turn, knowing he won't bet a hand like 99 or TT on the river if that's infact what he's holding. I'd have a hard time calling a river bet u/i, but the pot at this point is 7 BB's, and even discounting my King outs I think my tens are clean so I'm seeing the river.

Anyhoo, I check, he bets and I call.

The river is the T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I check. He bets. I line up $60 in chips, saying "sorry" at the same time, knowing full well he woudln't bet less than an ace on the river.

He calls, mucks his AQ in disgust and walks away.

A few minutes later he comes back to the table saying "You don't say "sorry" and check-raise." I say, "I was."

Anyways, he wasn't happy. Perhaps I should have simply said nothing?

I mean, I know that in retrospect I should have said nothing. But I'm fairly new to live play and I'm curious how you guys deal with keeping the table friendly when something like this happens. I mean, I don't think his reaction would have changed much if I'd said nothing. He was stuck and slightly steaming. I don't know. Maybe I don't have a question. But if anyone has a simliar account of pissing of an agreeable player, I'd love to hear it.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Maybe you check-raise and wait until after the hand to say "Sorry"?

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Sounds like he was probably just letting off a bit of steam. Eventually he'll take in a big pot or take a pot off of you and you can say something nice then I suppose.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Saying sorry is worse than saying nothing, IMHO. Apologizing as you bet is less likely to elicit a call than saying nothing, I would think.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Similar thing happened to me, but I said 'sorry' after the hand was over. I had AQ, he had KQ, and the flop was KQx. We went 3 bets, then the turn was an A. When we showed down and I saw he was ahead on the flop, I said 'sorry.' And he flipped out and called me "smarmy" or a "smart-ass," can't remember which. I was being the opposite -- just apologetic and friendly because I never like being the d|ck at the poker tables.

Anyway, I think you're best off just saying nothing, because opponents who lose frustrating hands like that often think you're being sarcastic when you say 'sorry.' You're not, but you still check-raised him, so how sorry can you be? If you're going to say 'sorry' before the hand is over, just donk the river and apologize, don't check-raise. If you're going to check-raise, wait until the hand is over to apologize or don't apologize at all.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're not, but you still check-raised him, so how sorry can you be?

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Well, after he'd sais "You can't say sorry and check-raise" the guy next to me said, "He has to check-raise." Check-raising is not some evil, evil thing and I am not sorry I played the river well. FWIW, I can be sorry and play a hand the way it should be played.

I totally understand your point, but, intellectually speaking, we shouldn't play sub-optimally because we like the guys we're playing with and we sucked out. He obv didn't see it that way, and most people wouldn't. But its a very real distinction.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I liked this part best...

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I think you're best off just saying nothing, because opponents who lose frustrating hands like that often think you're being sarcastic when you say 'sorry.' You're not, but you still check-raised him, so how sorry can you be? If you're going to say 'sorry' before the hand is over, just donk the river and apologize, don't check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

We all know the c/r is part of the game. We do it, we get it done to us. Leave it at that.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Yeah I agree no need to appologize for good play. There isn't anything wrong about check raising. That would be like appologizing for bluffing. Now if, say, you made a big bet out of position and then he folds in front of you and then you limp behind him, then I'de say sorry.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

My experience here is great. When I play I just try to have class winning or losing. I agree you probably shouldn't have said anything. Some people will take things different ways.

I disagree with you when you say you are sorry. You yourself thought that the tens were clean outs and you wanted that pot like every other one you play.

I do think that no one wants to be shown pity by the guy who just check raised them on the river.

A couple of weeks ago this guy on my left a tourney stood up and proclaimed, "There is no God." I thought that was pretty funny, but guys like that can't be consoled when they lose.

Edit: Concerning apologizing in poker. Basically, you're never sorry when you win, its just a sympathy for the other guy. Bottom line, you play and you're on both sides enough that when you win a pot by hitting that beautiful river you have a certain sympathy for your opponent, particularly if you like him. I think I saw a broadcast where one guy said, "I'm sorry it was you but I'm glad it was me." I think sorry shouldn't be uttered but I still every now and then find myself saying it, even though I try not too. Its only natural for anyone with compassion.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

instead of sorry, you should have said. "pot odds."

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, he wasn't happy. Perhaps I should have simply said nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't say anything. But if you feel compelled to say something (maybe to keep the game light or because it feels awkward to silently rake in a pot while some other guy is blabbing on about how mad he is), just say, "I got lucky." He'll probably respond with something like, "You bet your ass you did," and then he'll have his closure and you can both move on.

Props to the poster who recommended "pot odds."

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
instead of sorry, you should have said. "reverse sklansky implied pot odds"

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fyp

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Saying sorry is a bad move. Best bet is to keep quiet, the tension will probably go away after the next hand is dealt.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Just shut up and play.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

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Sounds like he was probably just letting off a bit of steam.

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The guy was just ticked because he lost money, or perhaps felt his ego was bruised. I wouldn't analyze this too much, cause you can't please everybody. When I'm at a table i just try to be myself and don't worry about pissing people off. I mean, really if somebody is getting pissed over something like this, they need to get the stick out of their ass.
Hopefully he'll just tilt against you next time you plan and you can clean up.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I just say "spiked ya"

Then if he gets mad i laugh and say "well you did hit the Ace on the turn!" because nobody likes a cranky table.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

quietly whisper "pwn"

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I farking hate this.

I mean, I understand what you're talking about in that you're not cackling with glee about getting in the c/r on this guy, but you're not REALLY sorry and saying it comes off as fake.

If you're saying sorry as you do it, you're not sorry. Being truly sorry would mean you don't do it. Nobody expects you to softplay to prevent hurt feelings, anyway, so no need to offer a half-heated apology.

Everyone sits at the table with the implicit understanding that they're trying to take money from everyone else at the table. Bluffs, check-raises, slowplays, blind steals, it's all fair game.

In the big picture, you didn't even really suck out. You had the best hand going in by a big margin, he caught on the turn, you caught on the river. Best hand going in won the money.

I had a donkey run me down with A3o when I had him dominated and he went runner-runner for the wheel, and he apologized. That cheesed me more than the beat, and I said (politely) to him "Hey, don't apologize. You don't really mean it and I don't expect you to feel bad. You play your cards any way you want to, and what happens happens."

The idea being I don't want him to feel bad, because the other 9 out of 10 times when he misses and I win, I won't feel bad either.

I will admit to not being blameless in this area, though I try. I will try and say something like "Ouch." or "Man, if I'd known you had THAT..." when I suck out or put a bad beat on someone. Say "I guess I lucked out there" instead of "Sorry", or something.

A couple of times in the past (earlier on in my vocal steam/tilt control efforts), I mouthed off more than I should have. When I noticed I'd offended (once I too openly/loudly laughed at/mocked a donkey's play and the other time I was sticking up for a fish against a drunk TC who got drunk-angry), I'd apologize (sincerely) and buy the guy a beer. Pretty easily a +EV investment long term in both cases.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]

but you still check-raised him, so how sorry can you be? If you're going to say 'sorry' before the hand is over, just donk the river and apologize, don't check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate apologizers in these situations. Especially when one sucks out and then apologizes. Honestly, if you're sorry, then give me back my [censored] money. If not, then you're not [censored] sorry.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

but you still check-raised him, so how sorry can you be? If you're going to say 'sorry' before the hand is over, just donk the river and apologize, don't check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate apologizers in these situations. Especially when one sucks out and then apologizes. Honestly, if you're sorry, then give me back my [censored] money. If not, then you're not [censored] sorry.

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Relax, Tik... "Sorry" is just a bashful admission that you know you sucked out (regardless of whether you should have folded on the turn or not)...

...and BTW, I think I recall apologizing to you once when I rivered you... if not, I am sorry. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Hi Brett,

You're not sorry and shouldn't say so. Andy Fox corrected me one time because I commented that I got "lucky" to an opponent. Are your opponents sorry when they hit their prayer on the river against you? I think not. Don't say anything, everyone knows what already happened, so comments are not necessary.

You should have bet the river. This would have solved two problems, keeping the game friendly, and making sure the river is bet.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
A few minutes later he comes back to the table saying "You don't say "sorry" and check-raise." I say, "I was."

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you sorry about?

-McGee

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I understand not saying you're sorry, but I don't understand this:

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Andy Fox corrected me one time because I commented that I got "lucky" to an opponent.

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Once I had pocket kings against an AAxx board heads-up by the turn. I thought there was a good chance I was better so I bet the turn. On the river I made kings full to beat A3-offsuit or something.

Was I lucky my kings beat his lousy ace? Of course not. Was I lucky to fill up on the river? Damn straight I was.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Sorry should be saved for stuff you aren't intentionally responsible for, like someone else nailing him on the river or missing that you have the winning hand in what appears to be a slow roll.

You should not apologize for things you have total control over.

Action: Kick in the nuts
Response: Sorry [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should have bet the river. This would have solved two problems, keeping the game friendly, and making sure the river is bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, as far as keeping the game friendly, point taken. As far as making sure a bet went in, most of the time I would bet. From the way he bet the turn though I was pretty sure he was going to bet the river so I chanced it.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

There are a few problems with saying "sorry."

-It comes across as disingenuous, as he pointed out.

-It might make him think you're trying to get him to call by making him suspect you're bluffing by saying it, and lots of players see that as a kind of angle or cheap trick, especially in a "friendly" game.

-There's nothing to be sorry about. It comes across as condescending.

Other day I made a straight on the river. I was sitting in the 7 seat, from which I can't see the cards real well. A player bet and I was honestly rescanning the board to make sure there was no flush possible. So it took me a little more time than usual, and then I raised. The bettor said, "Good job, next time take a little more time." I could have given him an exlanation, but usually any explanation, even one as concise as "sorry" won't come across very well. So I said nothing, which, in my experience, is usually the best thing to say.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I think it's your inherited knack of getting under peoples skin.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

F him. Next time checkraise and LOL really loud.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Just say "I pop you one time." They really like this... I wonder why some guy wanted to play me headsup so badly the other day...

Frankly, you shouldn't worry about their feelings when playing poker. As long as you are a nice enough guy, people get over the "bad beats" and will actually enjoy playing with you. Some guys love playing with you because they want to beat you, others just like you personally. It doesn't matter. Have fun while playing poker - it is a game after all. The other thing to remember is the best thing about poker is you always have the right to bet, raise or fold. It's all your choice. Something about that level of freedom appeals to me. I never understand why people find it so irritating when an opponent acts on that freedom in a way that's uncomfortable to you. It's the American spirit at it's finest (cue America the Beautiful...)

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

Don't be an ass. If you were truly "sorry" for sucking out, you wouldn't raise him. You're happy you did and that you get extra money. Let the chips talk and keep your mouth shut. No one is ever truly "sorry" for winning or sucking out in a poker hand.

Jeff

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if anyone has a simliar account of pissing of an agreeable player, I'd love to hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The type of reaction you will get for saying "Sorry" is certainly player-dependent.

Indeed, this past summer, while playing in a juicy 5-10 kill game at Foxwoods, I was already into my ritual tequila shots while joking it up with a friendly, cool, loose-passive Black guy who was on my direct right.

I was in the SB with 77, and there were a few limpers to my buddy on the Button, who limped, as did I. I then flopped a set on a low-str8ish board. I bet, and three players, including my buddy, called. The turn brought a not very threatening card (maybe a T or J?), and I bet again. It was folded around to my buddy, who said with seeming sincerity "I'm sorry, but I have to checkraise you," after which he put out his raise.

I pondered for a moment, and replied "Well, I'm really sorry as well, but I think I'm going to have to reraise you," after which I put out my chips.

My buddy let out a groan, double-checked his cards, chuckled while saying something like "Maybe my hand isn't as good as I thought it was," and then called.

The river went bet-call, and after I showed my set, he tabled his queens and gave me a good natured head nod while saying "Good hand."

And while this was all happening, a couple of other players were smiling or laughing softly, with one young guy proclaiming "Wow, that was like the most polite action I've ever seen." [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

And no offense was taken by anyone.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A few minutes later he comes back to the table saying "You don't say "sorry" and check-raise." I say, "I was."

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you sorry about?

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify, the reason I ask is that he probably thinks you were sorry for check/raising him, while I imagine you were saying you were sorry for drawing out on him.

-McGee

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I wouldn't worry about it too much, he's probably just steaming a bit too much

[ QUOTE ]
So, he opens for $30 in the CO. I make it $45 in the SB. He makes it $60, and I just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise it up again!

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

I was saying sorry for drawing out, not checkraising. This was the distinction I was drawing, the one very few others seem to see.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded. Next time I'll just keep my mouth shut. For Jeff, who called me an ass, it was unintentional.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

The correct play was to wave your hand in his face while saying "bye bye". And then challenging him to a fight if he got angry.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
The correct play was to wave your hand in his face while saying "bye bye". And then challenging him to a fight if he got angry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, that's old hat.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

FWIW,,,Onegymrat hit on a very good point in that you should have just bet the river in many cases when the table is loose and friendly. When you are at a total FISH fry and your edge is big I often find it more profitable just to play basic good ABC poker without many of the tricks you might use versus tougher opponents, for some reason it doesn't bother them as much to lose with straight play as it does using the tricky plays so they are more willing to feed your chip stack, there is nothing worse than pissing off a huge fish and have them go to another table

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

You check and then he bets.
As you are check-raising, you say "I'm sorry".
Sorry? If you were "sorry", you would bet out and let him fold.
Oh, no. You had to stick it to him for two bets (nothing wrong with that -- I might do it myself -- but not if "I'm sorry" ).

What you said: "Sorry"

What he heard: "Hey, schmuck. I got you. Now pay even more for being stupid enough to bet the river. Sorry I can't take even more of your money."

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was saying sorry for drawing out, not checkraising. This was the distinction I was drawing, the one very few others seem to see.


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perhaps if the title of your thread was "I say I'm sorry after I drew out" you would have gotten a different response.

Re: I say I\'m sorry as I check-raise
 

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For Jeff, who called me an ass, it was unintentional.

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For the record, I said "Don't be an ass," as in you were acting like an ass during this episode, not that you ARE an ass in general. Also for the record, I was not having a great workday, so I might have come across as too harsh. I think you were trying to be friendly but didn't realize how your comment would come across.

Time for sleep now.

Jeff