Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Blinds are 100-200. Hero is in the SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and a 15k stack.

UTG (plays weird), limps, and 4 more players limp. I call and the BB checks.


Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Your move? and plan?

Please don't just post I check or I bet $x, post your action and all the posibilities (well, at least some) in the flop depending on your action.

For example, if you say check, what are you doing if somebody bets?
If you say bet, what are you doing if somebody raises?


After some responses and discussion, I'm posting the action in the flop and the turn card.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I'm checking the flop with the intention of calling a bet, unless the bet is called in front of me, then i will check raise as its almost like a squeeze play. If there is a bet and raise I will fold. If my raise is called im shutting down on the turn. If I check called my action on the turn will depend heavily on what the turn card is.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I'm betting and folding to a raise.

Unless this flop hit someone REAL good, you are usually ahead. I would think AA,AK, and AQ would raise preflop. There are many players and we don't want to give free cards. Also, we are getting called by many hands that we beat, like JT, A7 or maybe even K9.

However, many limping hand COULD have hit this flop. That's why I seriously consider folding to a raise without a good read to the contrary. Generally, nothing we are ahead of is raising.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

night: How much are you betting?

MLG: Do you call any bet? or what is the maximum bet by a single player you call?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I check and call a reasonable sized bet. I'd probably fold to a bet that's >1k. If there's a call or raise before it gets back to me, I fold because I'm likely drawing slim or not ahead by much.

If I get to the turn somehow, I bet almost every turn for 2/3 pot or so.

Side question: who in this hand can have AJ? At the stakes I play, the answer is likely nobody. What about at these stakes?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

probably up to pot size, id shrug and fold to like a 2k bet i think.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Ok, I decided to check and see the action, with the intention of calling a bet. UTG bet 1k and folded to you. I decided to call and BB folded. Now heads up to the turn, pot is about 3.4k and UTG started the hand with about 10k.

Turn card is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Now, what is the plan?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I like the check and see strategy Mike outlined. Why do I get the feeling the 7d is coming on the turn?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I'm checking again, with the intention of calling anything up to 2/3-3/4 the size of the pot. I dont want to bet and be raised off my draw, plus if i check call there's still a chance he's bluffing.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

What does play weird mean?

Does it mean you don't have a read on what he does or does it mean that your read is he doesn't know what he is doing?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

my experience talking with david is that play weird means david has seen the guy make a play he considers bad, but hasnt seen enough of the player to definitively say he is a bad player.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

David,

I think I bet out about 2/3 the pot, and fold to a reraise. Especially if UTG reraises me. If someone calls, then lets see what happens.

Nick

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Basically, I think he has made some bad plays and some strange plays. I can't figure out the guy.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I think you want to see the river as cheaply as possible then.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I would play the flop the same as you but I would check raise this turn if he bets 1500 or more. If he bets 1000, i would call with the intention of check/calling the river as well. The reason I would check raise is because of the diamond draw, and also because I think AQ and AJ will fold. Also, if we are called by AQ or AJ, we have 6 outs to split and 12 to win, not bad. I think by check/calling a bet 1500 or bigger, AQ might value bet the river and we will have to call 3000 or so because of the pot, which will suck. I like the check raise because it will make a better hand fold.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I don't know B&M much at all so take this with a large grain of salt:

The flop is interesting. To start with, I like the check (betting gets raised too much and makes you check/fold the best hand on a lot of turns when you 'just' get called in multiple spots). So you check and UTG bets 2/3 of the pot into *6* people; even a bad player isn't bluffing when he does this. The question is what kind of hand is enough to satisfy his personal definition of not bluffing.

Here, I'd certainly call AQ. I think AT is close, but with the backdoor draws I'd think about taking one off. Having said that, realistically, you're saying he has JT or a weaker ace *and* is value betting it into this many people enough to make this worth while. I don't know that this is the case in a 10K buyin, snf I don't know what cards I like on the turn, so overall I'm not very happy with this call. But folding seems pretty weak and I don't think I could do it online vs. a loose player. Meh.

Once you see the turn, I think it's a clear check/call to keep the pot smallish (which fits in with what I was saying, because you caught good but have to check anyway.) If he does something weird like an underbet, I'd consider a CR to get rid of a JT or even AJ right now.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Hero check raises to T5000 (or twice the pot).

I'm folding to a push, and I'm pushing a diamond/7 on the turn, otherwise shutting down.

My rough breakdown (rough math to follow) is:
30% you are behind
40% there is a quality draw
70% you are ahead

My plan is to c/r out all possible drawing hands because they will not get sufficient implied odds to continue. And then bet the draw if it becomes available on the turn.


Hero is probably no more than 30% in the hand against 6 limpers (I used a wide range: all suited, all ace, all broadway,9, all pairs, and many connectors). Roughly the same as if you were up against 89 (two pair).

About ~1/3 of the time you are behind at the flop.
~50 hands you are behind (AK-AJ, 89,aa,88,99,a8,a9)
X 6 players = 300 hands. Villains are playing a wide range of about 900 hands -- so about 1/3 of the time you are behind after the flop.

The drawing hands:

there are ~60 quality drawing hands (tj,t7,76,!?qj)
So ~40% of the time there is a quality draw.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I've never played a 10k event but without reads I would check and seriously consider folding the flop to any reasonable sized bet. A9s, A8s, 99, 88, 89s, and even AJ are all going to keep punishing you and I don't see you getting much out of the few worse aces. There are almost certainly straight draws out there reducing your equity and possibly tainting the remaining 10s. Aces aren't really outs either.

I know two pair and sets and the rest sounds like monsters under the bed but I think here it's a case of risk versus reward. You aren't in a position to show your hand down and win after any significant action. It's going to be a long and probably meaningless (my ranges are wild guesses and obviously qjs doesn't get to showndown etc) calculation and I just started pokerstove but I would guess your equity is between 25 and 50%. You could call a bet and then check/fold or bet/fold different turns but I think if you call three bets with this hand you are never winning.

Now that I've come out weak/tight I have to say that I'd have a really tough time just folding this. With AJ I'd almost certainly take the line most posters are recommending. Surely people don't limp aq in this sort of event...

Once you get to the turn I don't think you can bet. Too likely you will get raised off your hand. Check/call and block a missed river. Maybe checkraise a flush, even with the checking and calling I doubt you are going to be put on a flush.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I am nowhere near the caliber with regards to the repliers and op, but one question arises when I look at the action and hand. With this holding out of position almost any flopp that doesnt hit monsterlike is a journey trough the fog of war. Was there particular cause to thread carefully pf? If so is it not equally applicable post flopp.
Why did you not raise PF? If you have decided to play the hand if an A falls, why not think about what that will cost, and then see what a raise can bring about? Looks like a hand that can win a little but loose alot most times?
I like the c/r line as it looks strong and any subsequent push tells all. Dependent on bet I like to raise 1,5-2 pot when doing this move. Now I dont know the pressure when playing these stakes, but it is the most expensive line. Second I also see leading out as a reasonable move, being in the blind with a semicoordinated board makes you hard to read and again it takes some guts to move on you and any significant raise may be the gods honest truth and not a move? Extremely read dependent, If tells where few and apart you have little invested in the hand already and could save your chips for a better opportunity.

That wasnt very constructive I guess, but as I said readdependent. Most interested in why it wasnt raised pf

For what it is worth Stokken

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

i wouldve raised this pre, but since you didnt and now looked at the flop 6way i am not calling 1K OOP there.

considering that you made it to the turn i check it...
if he underbets, i would checkcall if he has you covered and checkraise allin if you cover him.
if he bets pot or more, muck quick and wonder why i called the flop.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldve raised this pre, but since you didnt and now looked at the flop 6way i am not calling 1K OOP there.

considering that you made it to the turn i check it...
if he underbets, i would checkcall if he has you covered and checkraise allin if you cover him.
if he bets pot or more, muck quick and wonder why i called the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could raise preflop, but completing is more standard. It is generally not good to raise with marginal hands from the blinds. Raise only with big hands, and maybe with suited gappers or something if you need to disguise the blinds raise with big hands.

I am not sure what approach to take after the flop. However, TPNK is not much in a 5-way pot. You may well have the best hand both preflop and on the flop, but this is not easy to play.

I think you have to consider reads on opponents. This early, would people have limped with A7(s)-A2(s)? Would they have limped with AJ-AQ or AA? Aside from an ace, you have to be concerned about 99, 88, and 98s. JTs gives a draw.

I haven't played in $10K tournaments, but my understanding is these days there are a lot of loose fish early on, just like in the tournaments I play in. I would be looking to play speculative hands and try to get action when I flopped something big. I would be cautious with TPNK, because when you get action, it is hard to tell if someone is overplaying or has you beat.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Posting this without reading other responses first. I'd really like this flop, but I may have the best hand at this point. I'll bet 1000 to try to get anyone with flush or straight draws to fold. Assuming no reads, if I'm raised then I'll fold. If I'm called by one person, I'll take another shot at it on the turn. If I'm called by multiple people, I'll probably check/fold, unless the turn card helps me.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I like checking here. You likely have the best top pair hand but with so many people in the pot you can easily be behind a set or two pair. I would call a single bet. I'd fold to a bet and a raise. I could see myself leading the turn or check-calling depending on the card and who I'm up against. If it's UTG who bets the flop I'd be a little more cautious then if it's a LP possible stealer.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I'd check the turn here with the intention of calling a reasonably sized bet. I'm not quite sure I've got the best hand. It's possible, and I certainly have a good draw. I think check-calling both the flop and turn *could* be representing a set or two pair so unless the villain has AA, KK, AK he's probably at least somewhat concerned he's behind. I don't like leading out the turn here because I want to keep the pot as small as possible and not face a raise.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I forgot about diamonds; I check call again.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

I don't like seeing a flop with 4 limpers with this hand out of position.

I think you can pick up this pot preflop with a nice healthy raise. I also think a raise here makes the hand easier to play postlfop.

But given that you completed, I check and call a reasonable bet.

You can check-raise a lot of turn cards too: any 7, any J, any diamond, and of course a T.

If it is checked around, I DO NOT bet the turn, I check-raise it as someone will bet it for sure. If no one bets I lead the river.

-Scott

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I decided to check and see the action, with the intention of calling a bet. UTG bet 1k and folded to you. I decided to call and BB folded. Now heads up to the turn, pot is about 3.4k and UTG started the hand with about 10k.

Turn card is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Now, what is the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I checked again the turn, and he bet only 1k, so I decided to call the 1k with my pair and nut flush draw. Now the pot is about 5.4k.

The river card was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I checked and he bet 3k, do you call?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]

The river card was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I checked and he bet 3k, do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]
hell no.

if i was gonna call that, ida beat him to it and bet it myself.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

With this flop, I will begin by assuming I have the best hand.

I have a few problems. I am out of position, I really have no information about the strength of my opponents hands, the board is just coordinated enough that I hate giving away free cards.

The pot is 1200, which is just big enough to go after, but not big enough that I am throwing caution to the wind, and betting out big.

Can I keep the pot small? If I check call a single 3/4 pot flop bet, and a 1/2 turn bet, there would be a 6K pot on the river, with me having about double that behind, so a small pot is unlikely (especially since I really will struggle to have any control OOP).

So, forget pot control. A check raise on the flop is an option, but I could really need to commit a lot of chips to get JT, T7 off their hands. I dont like the risk/reward there.

By default, I am leading at this pot. Having sworn off 'feeler' bets, I am leading for 600-1200 here. If I am raised, I am done. I I get called by 1 player, it will depend on his image. If I am called by more than 1, I am done unless something changes.

Play on the turn is very player dependent if I am against a single opponent.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
hell no.

if i was gonna call that, ida beat him to it and bet it myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think you split the pot enough against a "weird" opponent to call? It's very close.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I decided to check and see the action, with the intention of calling a bet. UTG bet 1k and folded to you. I decided to call and BB folded. Now heads up to the turn, pot is about 3.4k and UTG started the hand with about 10k.

Turn card is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Now, what is the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I checked again the turn, and he bet only 1k, so I decided to call the 1k with my pair and nut flush draw. Now the pot is about 5.4k.

The river card was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I checked and he bet 3k, do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

By my math there's t5400 in the pot prior to his bet. When the 8 hits, I'm inclined to bet out. If he hasn't got a set, he's going to have a hard time raising, so I think you can lay down if he does. Put out t2000-2500 and see what he says.

The problem with calling here is that I have a hard time putting him on a hand that you beat - with the king out there I think there is a good chance you are looking at a split pot. This, of course, complicates the pot odds (t3000 to win either t8400 or t4400), and I think leans more towards a fold.

That said, given the board your hand is pretty good, and he may just be trying to muscle the pot.

I don't know. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I decided to check and see the action, with the intention of calling a bet. UTG bet 1k and folded to you. I decided to call and BB folded. Now heads up to the turn, pot is about 3.4k and UTG started the hand with about 10k.

Turn card is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Now, what is the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

He isnt folding a better hand here. I dont hate free cards nearly as much anymore. I am check-calling (maybe fold to an extra-large bet)

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I decided to check and see the action, with the intention of calling a bet. UTG bet 1k and folded to you. I decided to call and BB folded. Now heads up to the turn, pot is about 3.4k and UTG started the hand with about 10k.

Turn card is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Now, what is the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I checked again the turn, and he bet only 1k, so I decided to call the 1k with my pair and nut flush draw. Now the pot is about 5.4k.

The river card was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I checked and he bet 3k, do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

100% of the time, unless he gives off his 'accidentally showing AK' tell.

I love seeing the 8 here. Two hands I was worried about just got worse. Other than a T or a diamond, this is the best card in the deck for our hand

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Well that sure does complicate things a bit. Now we chop against AQ and AJ (and the unlikely Ace holdings we were ahead of). It also makes it less likely that he has 88. I think KK is unlikely the way the hand was played (limping UTG and leading out on an Ace high board versus quite a few players). I think his most likely holdings are AQ-AJ, 99, A9s, AA. All we can really hope for is a split pot here. I think getting just over 2 to 1 odds makes this a very marginally correct call. I'm going back and forth on just leading out or checking and hoping to see a cheap showdown. The problem with checking is that if you had a big hand it's unlikely you'd check-call the entire hand - you'd raise somewhere. So obviously you have a weak Ace or a missed draw. By checking you can almost expect a bet, even if he only has AQ/AJ.

So I think I like betting the river. There's a chance, albeit not a big one, that you can get top pair to lay it down. At the very least you know that if you're raised you're behind and can fold. I'm thinking 1500-2000.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Hero folds.

The turn bet of 1K is strange because its unlikely for hero to fold. I think in general you are either behind a little or a lot. I think its unlikely that villain has a drawing hand and is setting up a bluff on the river given that hero has the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and villain has not made an attempt to drive hero out of the pot.

Given the original 50 hands I estimated (88,99,89,ak,aq,aj,a8,a9, aa) there are only 37 hands left after taking into account the turn/river (including hero's holdings).
I can see villain betting the entire range.
Hero only splits the pot with aq,aj (12 hands or ~1/3).
So hero needs 6:1 in the pot to call;
I'd call up to T1200 or so.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

You dont think JT bets that flop ever? T7?

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

If by you mean villain can get here with a draw.
yes, but I think its more likely he has a hand.

because:
of the ~60 draws only 76 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] has a flush draw since hero has the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
It's dangerous to bet the draw without a flush, and the table appears pretty passive/tight.
Because of the not so great draw I interpret the turn bet as a psychological slowdown, or a pot building bet, rather than setting up a mugging on the river.
Villain's standard bet here is 1K, for him to get brave and bet 3K, I think the top of his range is more likely than the bottom.

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The river card was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I checked and he bet 3k, do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]
hell no.

if i was gonna call that, ida beat him to it and bet it myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you folding to here? I'd call expecting to chop or take the pot off a bluff. And I see no value in a bet even if I think I'm ahead: no hands worse than a chop call, and if he's bluffing he can either fold (costs you value) or raise you off the best hand (costs you a lot more). If the river were the 7s then I'd agree with you more.

A river check/call seems very necessary here.

Everett

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Lead flop, Since you didnt do that fold, since you didnt do that, chk/call turn, once he bets such a weird amount raise him to ~4k, since you didnt do that... call turn... once you do that, probably call river... What has he done in the past that makes you think he plays weird? (specific example?)

Re: Play a Foxwoods hand with me
 

Responding w/o reading other post

I bet out a respectable amount...probably 900-1000.

Why?
-I may be winning
-I want fewwer players to the turn to clean up my J/T/7 as outs.
-I'm not super worried about a raise with so many people in the hand it will take guts to make the raise with a hand that you have beat. In which case, folding to a big raise is probably the correct play. Also if the raise is callable you could pick up a bunch of outs on the turn.

If I get raised,call, and pick up a "good card" 7/T/J and d. I bet out on the turn.

If I get raised,call, and brick I check/fold.