I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

I know this topic has been broached before but I wanted to present my situation and get some advice.

I started online over a year ago and started down about 8K. Then I had a period of breaking even or being slightly positive.

Recently, I started getting much better, read more (about 10 books) and in the past 4 months, I'm up about 14K. My winrate is now consistently about $40-$50/hour online. I'm pretty confident I can make at least $60K or more if I could do this fulltime.

I have a law degree, spent 100K on it but am bored with law. Though I only make in the low 40s, I have a 9-5 schedule but am getting really tired of it. I get frustrated b/c my job cuts into my poker time!!! I also don't have the time to do all the poker reading I wish I had. Keep in mind the 14K I've made in the past 4 months is based on part-time playing. I really want to quit now but of course what will friends/family think or should I even care? I'm 30 and don't have real responsibilities now so the timing should be good. I've talked to some people and they said to at least get a better track record (since my jump has only happenned in the last 4 months). Any ideas, advice/pitfalls?

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know this topic has been broached before but I wanted to present my situation and get some advice.

I started online over a year ago and started down about 8K. Then I had a period of breaking even or being slightly positive.

Recently, I started getting much better, read more (about 10 books) and in the past 4 months, I'm up about 14K. My winrate is now consistently about $40-$50/hour online. I'm pretty confident I can make at least $60K or more if I could do this fulltime.

I have a law degree, spent 100K on it but am bored with law. Though I only make in the low 40s, I have a 9-5 schedule but am getting really tired of it. I get frustrated b/c my job cuts into my poker time!!! I also don't have the time to do all the poker reading I wish I had. Keep in mind the 14K I've made in the past 4 months is based on part-time playing. I really want to quit now but of course what will friends/family think or should I even care? I'm 30 and don't have real responsibilities now so the timing should be good. I've talked to some people and they said to at least get a better track record (since my jump has only happenned in the last 4 months). Any ideas, advice/pitfalls?

[/ QUOTE ]

A 14k bankroll is not nearly enough to do this. If you do this you will be sorry.

Edit: Switch to a different kind of law. What do you do now, transactional? Try trial work, do some court appointed stuff. Build up a bigger bankroll before you attempt this. And you need more than a few months of playing part time to know if you are really a winning player. (Or at least, to know how much you are really winning). No offense.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

One thing to keep in mind is that you will not be playing poker 8 hours a day, so your hourly rate is not enough info for you to figure out how much you can make a year

There's tons of other stuff to consider, maybe some one else will chime in with all that

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

I'm near your age, and have been playing online poker for a living for around 1 1/2 years.

It is so not easy. Why is this?
After about 6 months I hit a major wall due to burn out. The monotony & tedium of daily online play can not go understated.

In the past year have taken many breaks of two weeks here, 3 weeks there, I have even taken an entire month off on two occassions.
I NEED these breaks to stay fresh. If not for them, I'd go crazy.
I'm able to take these breaks because my win rate is high enough, and my BR is high enough to amply sustain myself.

My advice to you, do not do this for a living, mainly because of all the time & money you've invested in your law career.
Also, as alluded to, playing winning poker for 4 months is not nearly enough time to determine if you can do this for a living.
The advice to pursue a different focus of your law practice is an excellent one.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

No disrespect intended, but man, that's tough - 100k on the JD and you're making 40k a year? Where'd you go to school?

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Also, if the poker doesn't work out, I think you might encounter some difficulty reentering the legal field at a decent firm.

They are going to want you to account for the hole in your resume, which is tough. My advice would be this - if you are going to do this, sign up for some kind of organization or charity that you can put on your resume to fill the gap.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Lots of people want to quit their jobs so maybe I could open up a little and shed some light on this. Indianapolis is a really big poker town although most don't know it. I myself am only a small time guy (~50-60K per year in poker) but I play with some very big timers who make a lot more. I've often thought of quitting my job and observed that most of the big time poker players here in Indy remain in their juicy MBA 9-5 occupations because they claim that it gives them the stability they need if poker times get hard and quite frankly their jobs do not interfere with making much coin in poker. Playing poker exclusively is probably not the best profession unless u have a huge bankroll that would allow you to stop playing permanently if you had to. Take Danny Negreanu for example. If you read his blogs you can tell that he spends a lot of time away from the felt because he has the coin. You on the other hand may have to play more than you want to and this won't have good results. Most of the gamblers here that I know have other businesses as well. One of the biggest gamblers that I play with (he's a looser by the way) is Dwight Freeney, DE for the Colts. We will be playing in a game on the east side tomorrow night.

Wish me luck,

Indy

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

How about just reversing things...law part time and more time on poker? If you're burnt out on law, maybe a job change or some time off is the answer...what was it that interested you about law in the first place? Can you find that again?

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Keep playing poker part time for now. If you can get your law hours down a bit (to say 30?) that might be a really good compromise. It's easier to play online poker well when you only have at it a few hours a day during the week. Plus, that's when the games are juciest anyway.

You should be able to make a few thousand a month in poker while still having the fulltime job. Then, you can slowly move up in limits, so that your winrate will double or triple per hour. If you start making $200 an hour...there isn't much pressure to be playing 40 hours a week.

Of course, I like my real job, so maybe that's the difference (and I don't make $200 an hour at poker yet). Maybe start making enough at poker so you can get a real job that you like but may not pay very well (although, you're not breaking the bank with 40k now anyway).

Playing 40 or 50 hours a week is a GRIND. I used to do it at 3-6 limit. You have to play at non-optimal times, and it's very hard NOT to play if it's your only source of income (unless your rate was super high to begin with).

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

The beautiful thing about playing professionally is that you don't have to pay for schooling(well, at least not as much =))... basically, I think the fact that you've invested the time into yourself to get through law school is very respectable. Many people aren't built for this type of direction as they don't have the drive to go through so much school. Keep poker as your outlet on the side, and I really like the change in law fields idea. Keep things mixed up a bit, and keep poker as a profitable hobby, at least for now.
-Ace

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

[ QUOTE ]
Recently, I started getting much better, read more (about 10 books) and in the past 4 months, I'm up about 14K. My winrate is now consistently about $40-$50/hour online. I'm pretty confident I can make at least $60K or more if I could do this fulltime.

...

Any ideas, advice/pitfalls?

[/ QUOTE ]

What games are you playing? And how many hands have you played in the last four months? Is this the game you're going to stick with? What if you decide you want to move up in limits but find the going rough because it's a different style of play?

My sneaking suspicion is that you don't have enough hands to determine how well you're really playing...

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

don't do it. play poker part time. being a low limit grinder sucks.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Without advising you one way or the other:

One thing I can say is things change psychologically when poker becomes your only source of income. Bad beats probably won't roll off your back as easily as they did. I'm talking from personal experience as someone who jumped too soon. Bad beats used to roll off me like nothing. I had a perfect mentality, it's only money, and it's other people's money anyways.

When you hit your first long bad run, and you will hit one sooner or later, the bad beats sting hard. Not tilting becomes a lot harder when you need that money.

So if you do decide to do it, be prepared for that. Also, make sure you are definitely bankrolled properly.

Don't let anyone make this decision for you. If you KNOW you can do it and really believe in yourself, then you can. It's like that Nike commercial..."The man who thinks he can and the man who thinks he can't are both right." Just try to be as prepared as possible and don't rush into it.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Don't do it.

I think sometimes people don't realize that it is WORK that sucks, not their particular job. Making poker your job would be a doubly-bad move becuase it will take one of your favorite hobbies (which you probably like for as much as any other reason, becuase you are the boss, you play and stop when you want) and turn it into WORK.

Go to a career counselor, and brainstorm about career choices, and make a leap somewhere else maybe, but not poker. Keep it a hobby - thats why its awesome.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

First off, I believe one of the major obstacles in playing professionally, even for the very small percentage of money successful players, is maintaining a quality life away from the table. Maybe you will be good enough to be a successful pro, but can you sustain a rewarding life and preserve your relationships with those you care about?

Secondly, your law degree is good currency for many career choices, so you might consider a job change that gives you more satisfaction.

Finally, I would avoid using your short term run at poker and job dissatisfaction to justify the jump to full time poker player. Give it some more time, like years. In the meantime, you can build your bankroll and your expertise.

From one who has played the game for over thirty years and played professionally for ten years.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Don't do it. If you think you are bored now just wait until you play poker for 40-50 hrs/wk for a few years. Get a different job. Anything else but don't do what you say you want to do.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

play until you go on a -300 bb run (if ur a limit player) or until u've been stacked about 10 times... (variance), and then u'll realize that u dont want to depend on this game for a living.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Under what conditions is it good to take on this quest? Yea this guy spent 100k on a law degree, etc... I too agree he should stay in some form of law, part-time or something. Then again in the law field I think it's usually all or nothing.

14k isn't enough of a bankroll to begin the quest? I know you need living expenses, rent? utilities? say there is no car payment, uses public transportation. What would it take?

I got out of the Navy two years ago, and I've been going to school. A couple of the semesters I've dropped down to part time so I could play and focus on my game more. I play online, but I'm comfortable making 1500-2000 a month, around the 18k+ area.

My rent is fairly cheap $275(my half). I have no car payment, as I paid my car off shortly before leaving the Navy (it's a 97 Civic, good car) and my insurance is $65 a month. My cell bill is $50. No large bills, I live in a smaller city in New Mexico where it is inexpensive to live. I still very much enjoy poker and constantly find myself wanting to read more about it and discuss hands with friends.

I also enjoy taking trips to Albuquerque and playing live. Some tournaments ($45 buy in) and some 4/8 or 10/20 depending upon who is in the 10/20 game. I usually make some money playing live (anywhere from 100 to a recent run of 1700 in a couple days)

My point is, everyone says not to do it, etc...etc... But I think it depends on every person and what you want/need to do. After having spent 5 years in the Navy I needed a way to make money without having to listen to someone. If you want to jump on the edge and try it, do something. It's your life, and you only have one shot to have fun with it. Be responsible but don't be one of the sheep you see walking around hating everything they do and then 10 years wishing they would have done something different.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

You have no idea yet if you have what it takes. Also, you'll eventually be bored with poker the same way. Dont quit yet.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Your in an ideal situation.

My advice is to look at your legal career. How can you change that to seek high profit clients that require little of your time? As with most businesses, 20% of your clients make up 80% of your money. Find a way to optimize that condition and use poker as the cussioning that allows you to do that.

Think of poker as any other business. You need 6 months to 1 year in living costs saved up (not counting your bankroll).

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Thanks for the replies so far. I originally posted this in the Magazine forum and was wondering why I got no responses. I didn't find out the thread was moved until I clicked on my original message.

I know a 4 month record is much too soon but it's definitely something I'm thinking about. I'm planning to reevaluate this again in about 4 months. I started off playing 5/10 limit which is kind of stupid and how I took my initial lumps. I won consistently a few months after playing NL. I switched to tripling 3/6 limit this month and am doing a bit better (over 1500 this month), will make another 1500 in bonus/rakeback this month too) and still over the $40/hour mark. I'm only at 4BB/100 hands there but my next goal is to multi 5/10 limit, etc.

I work a 9-5 which is partly the reason for the 40K, low stress job, though it's in the legal field. Law firm associates at big firms make 125K + great benefits but generally work 65-70+ hours per week so there's a tradeoff. When I'm playing, time passese quickly but time can go very slowly at work. Of course, I'm looking for a new job too.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

How many weeks of vacation do you get every year?

The reason I'm asking is that maybe you can take 2-3 weeks in a row and use it as sort of a test run. Your performance won't be statistically significant, but it might give you a better idea of whether you'll be able to handle playing 8-10 hrs a day, every day of the week.

Just a thought.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

You should be a poker professional only if you love poker and just not deteste your job. If you can imagine playing poker for 8 hours every single day for an entire year. With all the psychological swings of poker it is a very very difficult thing to do. Before you do it make sure you have really really properly put a lot of thought into it. Being semi professional is a lot easier than professional. Poker will now not only be a thing of fun it is a business. Good luck with whatever you do

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

I admire all those professional poker players out there. I've thought about playing professionaly myself too and the emotional roller coaster is definetely something I can't take day by day.

You feel like a millionaire on a good day then a hangover when you go through the downswings.

Professional poker is not all fun and games but poker as a hobby is and I love playing <font color="red"> ONLY </font> when I'm bored.

For the original poster.. My advice would be to play like 200k hands before you really make a decision.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

I like playing alot otherwise I wouldn't do it just to make money. I probably have over 100K hands played. the last 50K hands or so have been on my winning streak. I've been pretty good at controlling losing days plus bad beats hardly bother me. The last time I played live, I won $1300 in a $5NL game with a max $500 buy in. What struck me was how bad those players were. Online players are generally better.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

have you read Al Schoonmaker's Psychology of Poker ?
If not, do so. Especially the section "why not to go pro" or something.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

The question you have to ask yourself is this.......

"why are you asking others whether or not you should quit your job, you should should know whether you should or not?"

My answer is that if you have to ask others this question then the answer is generally "no... do not become a pro"

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

There were a couple of poeple posting about playing low limit stuff for a living....kinda living on a low income.

I would caution against that for a few reasons...all of which look at the medium to long term outlook on things. Notably:

1.) Effects of inflation. This includes cost of living. In Los Angeles, it was reasonably easy to find studios for $350-600 a month just five years ago. Now that is nearly impossible.

2.) Games change. As peoples interest ebbs and flows, the condisitons of the games are drastically altered. Five years ago, there were constantly outstanding $3-6 Omaha games at Commerce, Hollywood Park, and Bicycle Casino in Los Angeles. Usually 3-4 tables each. Now there are 1-2 table and while there are still abd players, they are not bad enough any longer to allow a skilled player to significantly overcome the house drop. 5 years ago, Commerce used to get 20 or more $6-12 tables a night. Now they rarely run even one. Do not expect the changes in online games to be any less drastic.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

Little update:

I noticed I was getting stale on 3/6 so I took a shot at 5/10 double tabling yesterday and won $700. It's a good baby step. Like I said, I started at 5/10 over a year ago, got creamed and I think I've gotten rid of my bad habits. Now I want to build up a record on 5/10 and go to 10/20.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

At this moment poker is a hype. But it won't be forever.
When the hype is over, the good players will stay, so that only the very best can still make a living.

If all you are able to beat at this moment is the 3-6 or the 5-10 tables, then I would advice you to stick with your law career.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

A friend of mine who was burned out on real estate law switched to legal recruiting. Take a look at the field and see if this might be a good change of pace for you.

I myself work in legal publishing (IANAL; newsletter typesetting), and from what I can gather, if you are willing to put in the hours, a law degree is a license to print money once you pay your school debt. The current poker craze may fade, but people will hire lawyers until the sun goes red giant.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

The first down swing is rough. 4 weeks after I quit my job to play poker I took a 200bb swing at 5/10. Its FAR more stressful without a second income source.

Can you take a 3 month sabbatical and try it without the full commitment?

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

I was a college student with a $10/hr full time job about 8 months ago and I wouldnt quit my crappy job until I had at least 40k in the bankroll. $14,000 simple is not enough money to live off. If you do have vacation time or can take a month off, I suggest you do this.

Re: I\'m thinking of quitting my job
 

don't quit your job till you have a 100K hand sample size, after that, up to you man.