5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

no reads

utg limps, sb limps, i check red 5s in bb

flop is Ad4d2x, sb leads, i raise?

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I prefer calling here. If UTG calls, then it's pretty obvious that either

a) one of them has you beat and one of them has a draw, or
b) both of them have you beat.

It's very unlikely that both of them have nothing but a draw, but even if that's the case, they have oodles of outs since they have overcards to your pair in addition to their straight/flush draws.

And the pot is very tiny. I don't like building a large pot with a dangerous hand.

So, given no reads, I call the flop. If UTG calls and SB bets the turn, I raise the turn as a semibluff if I pick up a diamond on the turn. If not, I just call the turn and plan on calling the river. Oh, and if UTG folds to my turn raise and SB calls, I check behind on any river.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

Raise the turn, check behind on the turn to any scare cards, call any river bet.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I dont quite understand your argument. If we are often ahead on the flop, and both UTG and SB will have loads of outs, dont we want to protect our hand straight away?

I figure since the average SB ot UTG would have raised most hands with an ace PF, we are ahead on the flop most of the time, but very wounderable.

Therefore I would generally raise the flop trying to make UTG fold.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

Am i the only one that folds here? Against certain opponents i will raise or call, but against two unknowns (including a likely crappy UTG limper), i think i fold.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I like raising the flop. There is a chance your hand is best, and also a chance the raise will buy you a free card.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

FWIW, I also fold flop.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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no reads

utg limps, sb limps, i check red 5s in bb

flop is Ad4d2x, sb leads, i raise?

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I raise the flop as well. If UTG cold calls 2 bets and/or SB 3-bets, I check/fold UI on the turn. If UTG folds and SB calls and checks to me on the turn, I bet the turn and take a free showdown UI on the river.

It's very likely no one had an ace. The UTG likely has 2 overcards to your 55 and with 2 diamonds on the board you want him to fold or draw at -EV.

If you're behind, you've got 3 outs to what is almost certainly the nut straight, 1 out to a straight that puts a 3-flush out, and 2 outs to trips which, despite the 4 straight, would be strong.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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I dont quite understand your argument. If we are often ahead on the flop, and both UTG and SB will have loads of outs, dont we want to protect our hand straight away?

I figure since the average SB ot UTG would have raised most hands with an ace PF, we are ahead on the flop most of the time, but very wounderable.

Therefore I would generally raise the flop trying to make UTG fold.

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I don't think you're often way ahead on the flop. I think you're rarely way ahead on the flop (please see the two situations I presented in my first post). But you still have lots of ways of improving. So why not protect it? Because the pot is really small. You don't need to raise to protect your hand. A call is enough. UTG isn't going to call here unless he has a healthy draw or a made hand. If his hand is made, he won't fold to a raise.* If he's on a good draw (say...two overs and a flush draw), he's still correct to call getting 6:2. And you may get 3-bet. Now you've built a big pot, you're sandwiched, you have a hand that almost certainly needs to improve to win, and you have very few outs.

It's true that a raise will force out an UTG who has two overs. But two overs are not nearly enough to call getting 5:1, and he's not likely to call with just overs since there's an ace on board. It's also true that a raise may buy you a free turn. But given the bad side of the raise (getting 3-bet, getting cold-called, or getting bet into again on the turn), I prefer calling.

Yes, your hand is vulnerable. But w.r.t. protecting your hand, a raise won't do anything that a call wouldn't do. They both serve to protect your hand in this very small pot.

I also disagree that most UTG players will preflop raise with any ace. Many of them will limp.

*The only exception is that he'll likely fold an overpair to your fives, but there are very few overpairs with which a typical UTG will limp. Maybe 66 and 77.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

fold

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Am i the only one that folds here? Against certain opponents i will raise or call, but against two unknowns (including a likely crappy UTG limper), i think i fold.

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nope, I fold as well. this pot is miniscule, all our outs are scare cards, opponents are unknown, we don't have position.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I think this is a raise. Since there was no raise preflop, the likely hood of you being up against an ace is much less. That means we probably are ahead right now. SB can easily take a shot with a lower pair, a flush draw, or absolutely nothing. Furthermore, we have 6 outs to improve to virtual nuts, and we shouldn't really be fearing the flush if it hits.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Am i the only one that folds here? Against certain opponents i will raise or call, but against two unknowns (including a likely crappy UTG limper), i think i fold.

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nope, I fold as well. this pot is miniscule, all our outs are scare cards, opponents are unknown, we don't have position.

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How are our outs scare cards? Furthermore, UTG folds the vast majority of the time, so we do have position.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Am i the only one that folds here?

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No. Homie don't play that game. I would continue after an SB bet only if I made a set or an OESD.

If SB checked I would bet a rag flop. Otherwise I check and usually fold to an UTG bet.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Am i the only one that folds here?

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No. Homie don't play that game. I would continue after an SB bet only if I made a set or an OESD.

If SB checked I would bet a rag flop. Otherwise I check and usually fold to an UTG bet.

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Seems like a lot of people are saying fold. To me it seems like a pretty easy raise, but maybe I am wrong. Anyone else wanna comment here?

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

SB completed, so there are a lot of hands he could have that include an A.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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SB completed, so there are a lot of hands he could have that include an A.

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And a ton that could include a flush draw, a 4, a 2, or absolutely nothing.

And, the times he does have an ace, we have 6 outs.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Am i the only one that folds here?

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No. Homie don't play that game. I would continue after an SB bet only if I made a set or an OESD.

If SB checked I would bet a rag flop. Otherwise I check and usually fold to an UTG bet.

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Seems like a lot of people are saying fold. To me it seems like a pretty easy raise, but maybe I am wrong. Anyone else wanna comment here?

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I didn't notice the gutshot before. Might be worth a raise.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Am i the only one that folds here?

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No. Homie don't play that game. I would continue after an SB bet only if I made a set or an OESD.

If SB checked I would bet a rag flop. Otherwise I check and usually fold to an UTG bet.

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Seems like a lot of people are saying fold. To me it seems like a pretty easy raise, but maybe I am wrong. Anyone else wanna comment here?

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I didn't notice the gutshot before. Might be worth a raise.

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And, although it is only slight help, the fact that we have a backdoor baby flush is good too.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

Ninja-raise.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

Fold. You don't have to win 'em all.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Fold. You don't have to win 'em all.

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Can you please explain? I really think we are ahead here often. If not, we have a healthy 6 outs against a lot of his hands. Granted, the pot is small, so 6 outs isn't technically enough to draw to, but I think the fact that we are ahead so often makes this a pretty clear raise.

Noone has really given a detailed reason of why a fold is right.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Fold. You don't have to win 'em all.

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Can you please explain? I really think we are ahead here often. If not, we have a healthy 6 outs against a lot of his hands. Granted, the pot is small, so 6 outs isn't technically enough to draw to, but I think the fact that we are ahead so often makes this a pretty clear raise.

Noone has really given a detailed reason of why a fold is right.

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The pot is 4 SB minus rake. There is a player yet to act behind you. If you're ahead you have reverse implied odds against you. If you're behind the pot is too small to draw to and your implied odds are bad.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Fold. You don't have to win 'em all.

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Can you please explain? I really think we are ahead here often. If not, we have a healthy 6 outs against a lot of his hands. Granted, the pot is small, so 6 outs isn't technically enough to draw to, but I think the fact that we are ahead so often makes this a pretty clear raise.

Noone has really given a detailed reason of why a fold is right.

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this is a miniscule pot, the sb is leading into the field, and if we are ahead, almost every card that can come on the turn will suck balls. We also have a guy behind us to take into consideration.

This hand is very vulnerable, and honestly, I don't like the situation at all. If this pot was a little bigger, then maybe I could see justification for a raise.

What is your plan if the sb is leading into this flop when there are two more to act behind us, what if the limper had raised instead.

Raising only works IMO if we can take the pot down on the flop, but that really isn't gonna happen as more often then not the sb will call our raise and will call it down more often then not, and we are only ahead of the non ace pair hands, but if we hit a set, there is now a possible wheel out there. If the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits, there is now a possible flush draw. if this guy is leading into us with a flush draw, he most likely has two overs to go with it, and he has 15 outs against that, if he has a 3+flush draw+an over he is looking at 14 outs with two streets to come against us. Now take in the size of the pot, and the fact that we aren't in good shape against any hand except for a pair of 2's and pair of 4's, isn't this situation looking more and more like a fold, I think so

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

we have 6 full outs?

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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we have 6 full outs?

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It's pretty frequently 6 full outs or having the best hand.

Rob

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

We have second pair, a gutshot that's probably good, and a weak backdoor flush draw.

People want to fold in a 3-handed pot?? Please play at my table. SB is at least betting any A, 2, 3, 4, 5, pocket pair or flush draw and maybe a lot more hands than that. We are ahead of most of those hands and we have outs. Plus most of the hands we fear might have raised preflop to isolate the limper. Remember this guy is getting 3-1 to bet two cards leftover from a Mille Bornes deck. Any outs he may have are just gravy.

Exercise: This is a 3-handed pot. Compute the percentage of all possible starting hands are we currently ahead of. How can you win shorthanded when you fold your good hands for 1 SB?

Easy raise for protection and value. Calling could work with reads. For example if I actually believed UTG would fold overs calling would become a lot more appealing. Some idea that UTG would repeat any bluff or underpair he might be running would also help.

Error 1: UTG doesn't have implied odds to call the flop with overcards to my fives. Wrong. If he calls with JT, hits the turn, and goes on to win I will lose 5 SB in the pot plus 2 BB I put in later and maybe another BB out of SB. That's 11-1 I'm giving him to draw to 6 outs and maybe a backdoor flush. As bad as calling with JT might seem, it works because my hand is so vulnerable. Also I want the button.

Error 2: If UTG folds to my raise and SB just calls I should take a free card on the turn. Huh? I flopped second pair here. Why would I possibly want to give a free card when one player folds and the other goes on defense? We can discuss whether to bet the river later.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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we have 6 full outs?

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It's pretty frequently 6 full outs

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Which means we don't have 6 full outs.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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Easy raise for protection and value. Calling could work with reads. For example if I actually believed UTG would fold overs calling would become a lot more appealing. Some idea that UTG would repeat any bluff or underpair he might be running would also help.

Error 1: UTG doesn't have implied odds to call the flop with overcards to my fives. Wrong. If he calls with JT, hits the turn, and goes on to win I will lose 5 SB in the pot plus 2 BB I put in later and maybe another BB out of SB. That's 11-1 I'm giving him to draw to 6 outs and maybe a backdoor flush. As bad as calling with JT might seem, it works because my hand is so vulnerable. Also I want the button.

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Absent a read, my default belief would be that UTG would fold if he only has overs. But given your argument for raising (still without a read on UTG), I think I now prefer raising. But like you said, with a read, a call may be best.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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People want to fold in a 3-handed pot?? Please play at my table. SB is at least betting any A, 2, 3, 4, 5, pocket pair or flush draw and maybe a lot more hands than that. We are ahead of most of those hands and we have outs. Plus most of the hands we fear might have raised preflop to isolate the limper. Remember this guy is getting 3-1 to bet two cards leftover from a Mille Bornes deck. Any outs he may have are just gravy.

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You're seriously underestimating how passive people are at 5/10. This flop would get checked to UTG like 75% of the time

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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People want to fold in a 3-handed pot?? Please play at my table. SB is at least betting any A, 2, 3, 4, 5, pocket pair or flush draw and maybe a lot more hands than that. We are ahead of most of those hands and we have outs. Plus most of the hands we fear might have raised preflop to isolate the limper. Remember this guy is getting 3-1 to bet two cards leftover from a Mille Bornes deck. Any outs he may have are just gravy.

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You're seriously underestimating how passive people are at 5/10. This flop would get checked to UTG like 75% of the time

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No. In an unraised pot, people take stabs. That means they take stabs with absolutely nothing (we have had some threads about doing this, and a lot of TAGs like to do it), and they also will bet with virtually any piece of the board. They cannot try to check raise, as they have no indication that anyone will bet. That means, as StellerWind said, they are betting As (note, they probably don't have A9+, as they woulda raised preflop), any 2 (there are a ton they could have, completing from the SB), any 4 (also, a ton they could have), a gutshot (with a 3, they won't always bet, but a good portion they will), a 5 (we have 2 of em, so it isn't that likely, but it could happen), or a flush draw. They could also be betting absolutely anything else. UTG is not likely to be ahead of us, and SB may, or may not be, but more often than not, I think he is behind.

I still don't understand folding here. I love that StellarWind is on my side, because with him on your side, you virtually can't be wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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we have 6 full outs?

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It's pretty frequently 6 full outs

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Which means we don't have 6 full outs.

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Actually, it means that we have more than 6 full outs.

Rob

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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we have 6 full outs?

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It's pretty frequently 6 full outs

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Which means we don't have 6 full outs.

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Actually, it means that we have more than 6 full outs.

Rob

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ent, what is the play here. If we are ahead, then what do we feel comfortable with on the turn to be honest. Stellar Wind has given his argument for raising, is that what you are advocating or are you advvocating a call. I'm kinda confused as to what you are saying to be honest

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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we have 6 full outs?

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It's pretty frequently 6 full outs

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Which means we don't have 6 full outs.

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Actually, it means that we have more than 6 full outs.

Rob

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ent, what is the play here. If we are ahead, then what do we feel comfortable with on the turn to be honest. Stellar Wind has given his argument for raising, is that what you are advocating or are you advvocating a call. I'm kinda confused as to what you are saying to be honest

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I don't have a clear-cut play here. There are a lot of opponents that I'll call with, but it really depends on UTG. I have folded, raised, and called with this sort of hand in this situation before. I'd probably say overall I fold more than I raise, and I call more than I fold. Somewhere along those lines.

Rob

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

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I love that StellarWind is on my side, because with him on your side, you virtually can't be wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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That is exactly what I was thinking. I just wish I could explain my position as well as Stellar.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I am going to make some assumptions here that I think are at least close to the truth. My numbers will definetly be off, but this situation will get way too complicated if I don't simplify with some guesses about how our opponents will play.

First off, this is an unraised pot, so SB will bet with any ace, any 2, any 4, any flush draw. Next, if he has a 3, he might bet with his gutshot, so I will say he bets his 3 50% of the time. I will say that the same will go if he has a 5. He will also bet any pocket pair.

Now, not all opponents are this agressive, but I think the fact that some opponents will steal with even less of a hand compensates for the fact that some opponents check with these hands.

OK, now how many combos of hands is SB betting with. We have to remember that he didn't raise preflop, so that cuts out a large portion of what he could be holding (lets assume he wasn't getting tricky preflop and completing with a strong hand).

Aces: He could have A6, A7, A8, A9 (only 50% A9, since some guys will raise this prefop), which brings us to 39 combos.

Ace +: He could have A2, A3, A4, A5, which would either be 2 pair, or a pair with a straight draw for 34 combos.

Ace and flush draw: 5 from above

PP: He could have 66, 77, 88 (50% for 88, I think many guys raise this preflop), which brings us to 15 combos.

Pair of 2s: He might have 23s, 24s, 25s, K2s, Q2s, J2s, and even these a lot of people won't play, so I will discount by 50% and give him 7 combos.

Pair of 4s: He might have 43s, 45s, 46s, 47s, K4s, Q2s, J2s, but I will discount a bit, and bring the full 20 combos down to 14 combos.

Pair of 3s: 6 combos

Lone 3: 36s, K3s, Q3s, J3s, discounted slightly I will count 10 combos.

Lone 5: 56s, 57s, 58s, K5s, Q5s, J5s, discounted a bit and I will count 10 combos.

Straight: 53s, 2 combos.

Flush draw: K2, K3, K6-K9, Q2, Q3, Q6-Q9, J2, J3, J6-J9, T2, T3, T6-T9, 96-98, 86, 87, 76, or 30 combos.

Thats enough for now, I will follow up with analysis of these hand ranges later.