AJs
 

Villain seems pretty LAG...maybe normal for 6M. 60/20/3.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP ($189.25)
CO ($41)
Hero ($451.50)
SB ($188.40)
BB ($240.15)
UTG ($353.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, MP calls $8, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($27) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $25.

Turn: ($77) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $74</font>, MP calls $156.25 (All-In), Hero ???

Maybe I should have checked the turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


EDIT: PF raiser was 40/20/3, not maniacal, but I figured my hand was worth taking a flop with position and the other caller. Slightly loose preflop call...

Re: AJs
 

80 more to call against a super LAG? yea I call this.

Re: AJs
 

Looks like you got slowplayed, but pot odds warrant a call now.

Re: AJs
 

You have to call 80$ to win a $240 pot. I call this all day against this type of player.

Also as another note, you seem to like pot-betting Top pair from all the hands I've noticed you posting. Do you always pot bet every hand or what?

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you always pot bet every hand or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

on the flop, yes, pretty much.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you always pot bet every hand or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

on the flop, yes, pretty much.

[/ QUOTE ]

i potted the turn on this hand because i figured him for a pair + OESD type hand.

turns out he flopped the straight with KQ...oh well..

Re: AJs
 

You think this is a slightly loose preflop call? I'd think about a slightly loose reraise preflop in your position.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
You think this is a slightly loose preflop call? I'd think about a slightly loose reraise preflop in your position.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play 6M ever, just giving it a shot...would you really reraise AJs PF here? i know the guy is a loose raiser, but still...AJ is a pretty crappy hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AJs
 

I would some of the time. 20% includes a lot of crappy hands, and wtih a caller in between you got a nice squeeze... Even if you get called you take the pot down on the flop the majority of the time. They just called with a pocket pair for the implied odds against your obvious aces. And you are sooted.

But calling is obviously fine. I am just a frequent reraiser of late, but it's worked out well.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think this is a slightly loose preflop call? I'd think about a slightly loose reraise preflop in your position.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play 6M ever, just giving it a shot...would you really reraise AJs PF here? i know the guy is a loose raiser, but still...AJ is a pretty crappy hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If hes a loose raiser, calling is fine, I think re-raising here is bad.

Re: AJs
 

I would check behind the turn and call/bet any non K or 8 river. My hand is not strong enough to want to get allin, and I don't much mind giving free cards because the draw I'm likely facing is pretty clearly visible. It's not certain that he's going to go to the felt with a smaller two pair, but he definitely will with a set or straight. You've picked up a 4 out redraw and you have plenty of showdown strength, I don't want to dip too deeply in this spot.

Re: AJs
 

this is an easy reraise for me preflop.

if you are afraid of reraising because AJs is marginal then considering why you are calling?

if you are afraid of being dominated then you should fold.but villain's range is so wide that its unlikely and in the event that he does have say AQ, AK, my flop bet has much much more fold equity the times we both miss and he checks to me.

smoothcalling with AJ and playing it 3 way is bad.

reraise reraise reraise.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would some of the time. 20% includes a lot of crappy hands, and wtih a caller in between you got a nice squeeze... Even if you get called you take the pot down on the flop the majority of the time. They just called with a pocket pair for the implied odds against your obvious aces. And you are sooted.

But calling is obviously fine. I am just a frequent reraiser of late, but it's worked out well.

[/ QUOTE ]

reraising is better than calling.

calling blows.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would some of the time. 20% includes a lot of crappy hands, and wtih a caller in between you got a nice squeeze... Even if you get called you take the pot down on the flop the majority of the time. They just called with a pocket pair for the implied odds against your obvious aces. And you are sooted.

But calling is obviously fine. I am just a frequent reraiser of late, but it's worked out well.

[/ QUOTE ]

reraising is better than calling.

calling blows.

[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of hyperbole gets really tiring.

And I disagree.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would some of the time. 20% includes a lot of crappy hands, and wtih a caller in between you got a nice squeeze... Even if you get called you take the pot down on the flop the majority of the time. They just called with a pocket pair for the implied odds against your obvious aces. And you are sooted.

But calling is obviously fine. I am just a frequent reraiser of late, but it's worked out well.

[/ QUOTE ]

reraising is better than calling.

calling blows.

[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of hyperbole gets really tiring.

And I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

please read my earlier post.

calling is AJ is bad because while suited and mildly connected, you just don't flop the straight and or the flush that often. because villain is LAG, most hands from villain youve seen before this hand likely did not go to showdown and thus you have no idea the with what range villain is willing to commit with how much on later streets.

you flop a pair 1/3 of the time. of the times that you flop a J , some of hte time a Q or K is also on the flop and you still have to check fold.

to compound our problem, there is a third player who is likely calling with a marginal hand who we are giving a free shot at hitting a TP breaking hand.

what if villain's preflop raise % was 30%? 40%? do we agree that reraising AJ is the right play in this case? or do we still hope to make TP on the flop and try to trap?

Re: AJs
 

I remember having a debate on this a while ago that got kind of ugly so I don't want to repeat that.

I will just leave you guys with a question.

what is more likely "that our AJ is best against villain's range preflop" or that "our TP is good against our villain on the turn or river" ?

the sheer fact that OP has problems calling a push getting 3 to 1 with top two in this hand clearly demonstrates why reraising preflop is superior.

Re: AJs
 

The only point I'm trying to make here is we are likely talking about small amounts of EV either way. Calling and raising are way, way better than folding. Raising may be a little bit better than folding. This whole -- CALLING IS OMG HORRIBLE, CALLING BLOWZ, is just not necessary.

20% is not like ridic LAG. I am at like 18% or something and I'd say I'm smart LAG that maybe gives up a little bit pre flop. Maybe he just goes crazy and raises any two from the cut off or button. Maybe he plays straight forward UTG. I really doubt you have his hand range just flat out ridiculously dominated with AJ suited.

How you play the hand after the flop is going to be a lot more important.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only point I'm trying to make here is we are likely talking about small amounts of EV either way. Calling and raising are way, way better than folding. Raising may be a little bit better than folding. This whole -- CALLING IS OMG HORRIBLE, CALLING BLOWZ, is just not necessary.

20% is not like ridic LAG. I am at like 18% or something and I'd say I'm smart LAG. Maybe he just goes crazy and raises any two from the cut off or button. Maybe he plays straight forward UTG. I really doubt you have his hand range just flat out ridiculously dominated with AJ suited.

How you play the hand after the flop is going to be a lot more important.

[/ QUOTE ]


precisely because we fear a smart LAG is why the reraise is good. if villain was dumb LAG, reraising is actually not so good.

the reraise forces villain to play a narrower range of hands postflop then had you just called which allows us to pick up a substantial amount of unclaimed pots.

The reason I feel calling is bad ( and perhaps my hyperboles were a bit over the top) is because a call is how good lags make money off of us. They take us off best hands when we both miss and when we play back the times we flop something, they won't continue in the hand unless if they have us beat.

your pfr is much higher than mine. so coming from a pseudo smart lag, wouldn't you agree that you would much prefer somebody behind you who reraised with a well defined range rather than somebody who occasionally threw in a well timed reraise bluff?

Re: AJs
 

Uhm no, if villain is a bad LAG, re-raising is great (in this case I think re raising is OK) but if the villain is simply a little looser and aggressive than most, which range of hands do you see him calling with?

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uhm no, if villain is a bad LAG, re-raising is great (in this case I think re raising is OK) but if the villain is simply a little looser and aggressive than most, which range of hands do you see him calling with?

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is bad LAG, reraising is bad. if villain is bad lag and he 3 bets all in, what do you do? if villain is bad lag and he smoothcalls and then fires pot on a KJx flop, what do you do? or if flop comes all unders and he bets pot?

you are put in to many many more marginal situations if villain is bad lag than if villain is good LAG assuming good LAG villain does not think you capable of reraising AJ.

I don't mind a fold from villains of hands that I am coinflip with or near coinflip with (KT, KQ). I also don't mind if villain folds suited connectors and other implied odds hands. but if he does call my reraise with say a mid pocket pair hoping to bust my "obvious" AA/KK, I make money when he doesn't hit his set and I don't lose much the times he does hit. if he calls with AK, AQ, because we are sharing the A, it will happen less than 1/3 the time that he flops a pair and even if he does flop the pair, playing it out of position against a tight preflop reraiser sucks thus if he is smart LAG, he likely folds a lots of better hands.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only point I'm trying to make here is we are likely talking about small amounts of EV either way. Calling and raising are way, way better than folding. Raising may be a little bit better than folding. This whole -- CALLING IS OMG HORRIBLE, CALLING BLOWZ, is just not necessary.

20% is not like ridic LAG. I am at like 18% or something and I'd say I'm smart LAG. Maybe he just goes crazy and raises any two from the cut off or button. Maybe he plays straight forward UTG. I really doubt you have his hand range just flat out ridiculously dominated with AJ suited.

How you play the hand after the flop is going to be a lot more important.

[/ QUOTE ]


precisely because we fear a smart LAG is why the reraise is good. if villain was dumb LAG, reraising is actually not so good.

the reraise forces villain to play a narrower range of hands postflop then had you just called which allows us to pick up a substantial amount of unclaimed pots.

The reason I feel calling is bad ( and perhaps my hyperboles were a bit over the top) is because a call is how good lags make money off of us. They take us off best hands when we both miss and when we play back the times we flop something, they won't continue in the hand unless if they have us beat.

your pfr is much higher than mine. so coming from a pseudo smart lag, wouldn't you agree that you would much prefer somebody behind you who reraised with a well defined range rather than somebody who occasionally threw in a well timed reraise bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post.

To answer your question.. yes. One of the more annoying adjustments that I have seen better players make against me is re-raising light with hands like an ace-jack suited.

This forces me to make a counter adjustment. The best adjustment to make here is something that I have been thinking about. I don't really want to re-re-raise light with stuff like AQ or JJ because before I know it I'm all-in and all the play in the hand is gone.

I'm basically resigned to calling the re-raise and then going for a check-raise all in on the flop. Perhaps the best adjustment is just to change gears.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uhm no, if villain is a bad LAG, re-raising is great (in this case I think re raising is OK) but if the villain is simply a little looser and aggressive than most, which range of hands do you see him calling with?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I think Amoeba's point is, which I happend to agree with, is reraising a good LAG who can get away from a hand is good here. Reraising a bad, shove it in with any 2 never fold LAG is bad. The key difference...fold equity.

Re: AJs
 

Fold equity aside (I really don't assume too much fold equity pre-flop in the Party games I play), I want to get money in the middle pre-flop when I'm a favourite against our villains range, the only thing calling AJ are hands dominating it from someone with half a brain or like you said, someone whos think they will get paid off post-flop if they hit.

If you re-raise AJ here-call, flop 56Jr, check to you, bet-raise.. you throw up, fold, have just spewed.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity aside (I really don't assume too much fold equity pre-flop in the Party games I play), I want to get money in the middle pre-flop when I'm a favourite against our villains range, the only thing calling AJ are hands dominating it from someone with half a brain or like you said, someone whos think they will get paid off post-flop if they hit.

If you re-raise AJ here-call, flop 56Jr, check to you, bet-raise.. you throw up, fold, have just spewed.

[/ QUOTE ]

in your example with the 56Jr flop, are we playing against good lag or bad lag?

Re: AJs
 

smart LAG

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you are afraid of reraising because AJs is marginal then considering why you are calling?

if you are afraid of being dominated then you should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling lets you play a pot with position with plenty of money behind. Being dominated is not an excuse to go broke. You can still fold top pair if the postflop action tells you you're beaten. The third player in the pot forces your opponent to stay in line more and give you more respect when you call (or raise?) the flop.

If you reraise preflop the first time you find out you're dominated is when all the money is going in the pot.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
smart LAG

[/ QUOTE ]

so you are saying smart LAG flopped something that beats my TPTK.

thats fine.

if he needs to flop something to beat my TPTK then it makes my reraise all the better. lets say he has 55.

you are failing to account for the times the flop comes say 2 6 K, and I win more money.

I have essentially forced him to outflop what I'm representing, which is big overpair or AK.

you said earlier that the only hands that calls our reraise are hands that dominate us. Thats fine. thats the way I want it. villain is rising 20% of hands. hands that dominate us are maybe maybe 5%, 3/4 of the time we make 16, 1/4 of the time we drop 25.

Re: AJs
 

Seems like a pretty easy call to me...

Am I missing something?

Ryan

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a pretty easy call to me...

Am I missing something?

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

The call is easy. The thread turned into a question about the merit of reraising a LAG when we have position with a marginal hand.

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have essentially forced him to outflop what I'm representing, which is big overpair or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're reraising him with every decent hand you're dealt then you're no longer representing premium hands by reraising him. Or maybe you think you're still representing them, but he's not going to keep giving you credit. And this begs the question: If you're going to bluff, why waste a strong hand to do it with? Bluffing should be done in cases where it's the only way to win the hand. With AJs, you're bluffing out worse hands, and you're going to get stuck in a big pot with TPGK where you've made it tough for anything worse to stick around with you, yet you feel compelled to stick with your hand since the pot is big, you've got a reasonable hand, and your opponent is LAG. (So I guess it would be more accurate to say that you're not bluffing, you're simply overplaying your hand.)

Re: AJs
 

you are right soah, you should be raising with an even worse hand strictly speaking.

I don't feel its a waste reraising here though as your EV from the reraise is higher than your EV from just calling.

although strictly speaking it would be better if you reraise here with 72o as the EV difference between reraising and folding is even bigger.

techinically its not a bluff though. because if we expect all better hands to call the reraise then its not really a bluff but rather trying to pick up the pot and force opponent to fold a hand that while worse than ours has odds to call.

Re: AJs
 

Your EV of raising may be better than calling... but I must argue that this alone does not make it the correct play.

Much of your equity is derived from the fact that your opponents will give you respect, they will put you on a big hand, and they will not play back at you much unless they flop something very big. Thus, you must make this move sparingly, or else your image will become tarnished and your reraise will not get respect, they will not put you on a big hand, and they will start looking you up or playing back at you.

Suppose that you are to play two hands... AJs, and 76s. Your opponent will have a random hand in the range of JJ-55, AKo-ATo, AKs-A6s, all suited broadway, KQo, and T9s-43s. Your opponent doesn't know what you are being dealt, but he believes you to be a tight, rational player. The poker gods inform you that you must reraise preflop with one of these hands, and call with one of these hands.

As a good player in position we will assume you can show a profit calling with each of these hands, and a bigger profit reraising them. I believe that the difference in EV between reraising/calling with 76s is greater than the difference in EV between reraising/calling with AJs. Therefore, I choose to play AJs for "best hand/steal unwanted pots" value and 76s for "force him to flop huge, and then make a hidden straight to bust him" value.

(And of course, this is all based upon the assumption that the reraise will indeed force him to play very tight on the flop. If he will still check/call the flop with unimproved 99, etc, then much of this analysis is useless.)

Re: AJs
 

I know what you are saying.

I said pretty much the same thing.

it is rather counterintuitive though.

what I should have said is, if you haven't raised or reraised in a while, make this reraise regardless of what you have.

I still don't think the EV of calling is neccesarily that good. when we call with say 67s, we aren't attached to paired hands, which we predominately make. When we make paired hands with say AJ though, there is a degree more difficulty getting away from it.

But yes, if you feel that postflop you are as good as villain, then it makes more sense to call AJ, and reraise a more trash hand.

Re: AJs
 

If I understand your rationing correctly. This is just my opinion but, i don't think you get a loose call 1/4th of the time when the pot has been preflop raised then potted after a check. With this agression, I would put the loose call ratio closer to 1/6th and flopped monster closer to 5/6th. THus not as good

ADDED:

Your loose call is most likely to come before the flop. say with KQ?....TT....99?

Re: AJs
 

talk about dissapointment. This thread had 33 replies so I had to see what all the kafuffle was about, and it turns out the hand was pretty simple. Yeah I like hero's line, and yeah I like a call.

Preflop: Me personally I like to call here, and would rather put a small suited connecter in my reraising hand range

Re: AJs
 

Wow amoeba you are wrong calling here preflop is perfectly fine. How can you have so many posts and not understand this basic play?

Re: AJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
smart LAG

[/ QUOTE ]

so you are saying smart LAG flopped something that beats my TPTK.

thats fine.

if he needs to flop something to beat my TPTK then it makes my reraise all the better. lets say he has 55.

you are failing to account for the times the flop comes say 2 6 K, and I win more money.

I have essentially forced him to outflop what I'm representing, which is big overpair or AK.

you said earlier that the only hands that calls our reraise are hands that dominate us. Thats fine. thats the way I want it. villain is rising 20% of hands. hands that dominate us are maybe maybe 5%, 3/4 of the time we make 16, 1/4 of the time we drop 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I should be doing this w/ 72o...

I'm not going to elaborate on my opinion further because I believe soah has pretty much outlined why calling is better in this situation.

Re: AJs
 

i sometimes check this flop, given how it's played out, you make the crying call on the turn.

I think pf is good, folding raising calling are all viable. I haven't poured through what people say but intuitively reraising is best.

edit:* Although I would call more often then reraise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AJs
 

gettting almost 4 to 1 with top against Super Lag, yeah i call.

He'll show you a straight a lot, but a worse 2 pair enough to make it a call.

Re: AJs
 

Sorry to bump up an old thread (it is on the Digest, though), and sorry in advance for the tangent.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to bluff, why waste a strong hand to do it with? Bluffing should be done in cases where it's the only way to win the hand....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a new concept to me, and flies in the face of much of my understanding. In essence it negates any sort of semibluffing, unless the quote applies only to the strictest definition of bluffing (betting or raising when you have no chance or a tiny chance of winning at showdown). But in fact, the reraise PF with AJs is a semibluff, not a total bluff, because AJs could outdraw a dominating hand several ways.

So I guess I just don't understand that quote. Is it accepted conventional wisdom to save bluffing for lousy hands?