Can someone help me take better notes
 

Hi all. I was just wondering if anyone could help me out in the note taking department. I don't really know how to put this but I think I don't utilize note taking enough even when I take them. For example, I often takes notes like "cdw A high to river" or "Tried a river bluff raise in large pot". I think that these are probably the kinds of things that I should be taking notes on but then I end up not using them or the players leave pretty soon after I take them. I bonus whore so I play on a lot of sites so maybe they would come in more usefull if I played on one site more often. However, usually the guys that I play a lot of hands against are the best players and I end up having the least amount of notes on them because I think "well he made the right play, why should I note that". I guess maybe this is wrong thinking but it's hard to tell what I should put down against such players and I don't want to mislabel a good player because he made one or two "bad" plays as he might just be trying to mix things up. Also, I think when I play against these players sometimes I'm too simplistic with my notes. For example, I usually just end up value betting more against the "cdw A high" guy or trying to induce bluffs from the aggressive guys. Maybe this is what I'm supposed to be doing but I gusse I think I'm just not getting as much as I should at these aspects. I normally 2 table 6max 3/6 or 2/4 if there aren't 2 3/6 tables and I have been good about not surfing while I play so I think I'm paying pretty close attention. I guess I'm rambling but am hoping someone could help me more with this.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

I think this is exactly what you should be doing w/ your notes. I also like to note what sorts of hands people donkbet with, and what hands they c/r with. Those can be some of the hardest plays to play against properly because they can mean so many things and because they can result in costly mistakes.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

sounds like you are on the right track. Continue to take notes even if someone leaves the table, you may sit down w/ them again in the future.

I note everything that catches my attention. Donked into pfr w/ bottom pair. Check raised turn w/ flopped trips, bluffed river scare card, etc. I think the notes will give you a lot better read then the stats will.

People tend to follow a betting pattern, so when you see them play a hand a certain way, that means they usually play it that way everytime.

in summary, keep taking notes.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

Thanks guys, I guess I just needed some affirmation. I had a few days where I didn't take as many so I was starting to think that maybe I should be doing something different.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

This is something that I haven't even started doing yet [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Every so often I'll make a note saying "COMPLETE LAG" but that is redundant and useless since I'm already running PAHUD.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

I think you're on the right track. One thing, though, is that at the micros, I think it's actually more helpful to have notes on the good players. They generally have a reason for what they do, and will play more consistently. And they're not working hard to deceive you because they know that it's not usually necessary at these limits.

I try to make my notes things that will help me understand what their bets/raises/calls mean. It helps if you keep the betting sequence in mind when you see what they showdown, and I also speculate. For example, a thinking opponent raises, and reraises flop, smooth calls turn, and folds river for one bet. If there was a 2 flush on board, I may make a note like: ??may have pumped a flush draw?? Or if they show down a rivered flush but raised the flop in position, I might note ??possible free-card raise/semibluff??

"Called down on rags board" is also distinct in my notes from "Called down on coord(inated) board." If the board shows 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], my opponent might reasonably conclude that his Ace high good kicker is the best hand, or at least likely enough to be good to warrant a calldown against 1 opponent.

I especially look for people who will bluff-raise the turn. I have one opponent I really like who will routinely bluff-raise the turn and follow up with a river bluff with nothing. I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] him. He can turn a losing session into a winning session all by himself.

If you're regularly playing at the smaller sites to bonus clear, you might also think about marking opponents that seem to have your number. I have someone like that at Absolute. He/She is really good and also seems to have a pretty good read on me. If I have a few tables to choose from (unfortunately, not always the case at Absolute), I choose the ones he's not at (unless I feel like really thinking carefully about poker and improving/varying my game.)

I'm rambling, but those are the kind of things I think about when notetakeing.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is something that I haven't even started doing yet [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
You should know better!

I'll look for stuff like donk bets - I hate them, and I want to know what they'll do it with. I also make notes of what someone calls down with, if they'll bluff a scare card, etc. (Oh - and that's why don't fold in a big pot to the scary raise vs. an unknown.)

I kept iso-raising a guy the other day, and he LRR me with 33. Made a note of that, too. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Really didn't need it, though. Dude was soooo bad.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

I definitely know better. I'm able to make mental reads during sessions**, but of course that doesn't help 2 weeks later when I run into the same player later. Sometimes I don't understand my own laziness [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

** funny story. Back when Wilma hit, my wife's sister (student at UMiami) took refuge at our house. I was playing poker for a while and she asked if she could watch. One hand I pretty much predicted every move that a villain I had been watching was going to make. I was correct on the whole hand (on the river I said, "ok, this guy ALWAYS bets the river when checked to him as a bluff. Watch as I induce his bluff and raise him to get 2 big bets from him"), and she was in awe. It was like that scene in Rounders when Matt called off what everyone held [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

But yeah, I suck about actually taking the notes. I'm currently trying to figure out what notes I could generate automatically from the PT database...that's more exciting to me than actually taking the notes myself [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

depending on what site you play at and what level, you will likely run into the same players.

Start taking notes.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

You're 100% right. This is a laziness issue that I need to overcome.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

how many tables do you play?
do you watch tv, surf internet, etc. while you play?

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
how many tables do you play?
do you watch tv, surf internet, etc. while you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

3, yes, and yes.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

I have a Wordpad document that is a blank slate that I copy and paste into everyone as soon as I sit down at a table with them.

It looks something like: (I'm at work so don't have the exact doc.)
[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: (this would be lag, tag, etc..)
Postflop: (same but how they play post)
HTP: (this stands for "how they play" and is my own assesment of if they are straight forward "ABC", or play only their hand "PTH", or vary their play to who's in the pot "Thinking")
CC: (here I put an x everytime I notice a coldcall, or the hand if they show it down)
BD: (x for every blind defense against a steal, or the hand if it makes SD)
SNG(s): (x for strong donkbets that was actually decent or a slowplay)
SNG(w): (x for weak donkbets, or bluff/garbage stop and go's)
RaiseF(s): (x - when they raise on the flop with an strong hand, I include free card plays, and value bet on draws here too)
RaiseF(w): (x - when they raise on the flop with garbage, bluff, etc...)
RaiseT(s): (same as flop notes for every street)
RaiseT(w):
RaiseR(s):
RaiseR(w):
Showdowns: (hole cards of showdowns)
General Notes: (all the other stuff like "CDW A hgh-3 Flsh", "LRR any pp")


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously there are some players roaming around where this form is blank. Or where I haven't played them enough to have a full bead on what I rate them. But if they do a certain action like raise the turn (strong) and have never cc or raised a street (weak) it helps me get a bearing of what that turn raise means. This may not work for you but for me it helps organize things in their notes so I can look at them quick and add to them quickly as well.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

Heres some notes i took today as an example of my note taking(I also use hud, and i have cut my tables for 4@ 1/2 to 1@1/2).

But i increase it to 2x today and already my note taking is suffering!!!!

Firstly(Assume you all do this, but just incase):
Make sure in PAHUD you display Showdown information(Thats the flop in text and their hands - Very important).

ANyhow here is how i personally note take.

Example:
"1/2 @ 10max[i]
PFR:99CO,
LIMP: A4oMP2
*Bet F/T/R OESD HU - 67 89A5T(bet flop/turn/river of OESD heads up holding 67 on a 89A5T flop)
*Bet When Chkd2 HU J8 9A3TK"

Stakes - I dont want notes on .05/.10 guy playing 1/2... Play changes.

PFR: This is usually notes for the HIGH PFR'ers or the super low i.e. 15%+ or <4% - I want to know a few hands they PFR with, Of course this is gradually adjusted over time.

limp:As i said with PFR, i note down most of these limps and end up having maybe a list of 20 - 30 that i'll condense after i've finished playing/have few minutes spare. After i have say 20 - 30 i'll then summarise, So if i have "A4oMP, A2oEP, A9oCO, AToEP" i'll condense to "Ax" now if you automatically do this after a few hands he could be playing loose for the table so a wider range is needed IMO as these are my notes and i base reads on these!

*Notes get messy so examples are started with a star, they often lead onto other lines so i dont want to read the end of one note and begin to read the start of another. That will confuse the hell out of me when i have 5seconds to bet/Call/Fold/Raise.

I use examples as summarising "He bets scare cards HU on river" after you see him do it once can be very misleading. Actions are situation dependant so i want to see the situation/Actions shown/typed shorthanded. As i said above, if he bets river on a scare card 3 - 4 times i'll summarise and move this line to the top of my hand notes(Below: LIMP)

Notes used with PA+PT are effective, but i still think i need to work on note taking/Neatness/Shorthanded.

I'm beginning to use CD = Call down, CC=ColdCall, C/C=Check/Call and also "B" = bet, "BAS"= Bet All Streets Etc.

Sorry for lecture.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're 100% right. This is a laziness issue that I need to overcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reqtech- for what its worth i stopped doing this a long time ago and i really think it's hurting me now that i'm no longer at .5/1 and i see the same players all the time.

working on changing it too.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

Glad to see everyone thinks your on the right track cause I pretty much do the same. Only thing I'd add is I like to note the date and limit also for future reference. I play full and 6max depending on table selection and don't want to transfer a read if it doesn't really apply. People change over time also so the date helps there.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

Jeez, I hope that player you're talking about isn't me. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

The thing that I'm having the most trouble is with taking notes on "good players". I think I'll try to do this more and you have some good examples here. I also have more trouble with these players (probably because they're good, duh) but that's just something that I have to keep working on. Thanks.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

Wow, these are really good notes. I don't think I could manage that but it probably does help. Are you able to keep up with this at more than one table. When I started on line I played at Pacific and they didn't support PT so I kept track on my own and this seems pretty similar. I only played one table though but I payed very close attention, partly because I was tracking the play of my opponents. I bet if you're dilligent with this form you play very well even if you don't necessarily use the form as a reference. What I mean is, you probably have a good idea of your opponents simply because you've been tracking him and may not even have to reference what you've written. Stay away from my table.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]

Example:
"1/2 @ 10max
PFR:99CO,
LIMP: A4oMP2
*Bet F/T/R OESD HU - 67 89A5T

[/ QUOTE ]
rofl

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Example:
"1/2 @ 10max
PFR:99CO,
LIMP: A4oMP2
*Bet F/T/R OESD HU - 67 89A5T

[/ QUOTE ]
rofl

[/ QUOTE ]

don't the cool kids say "lollerskates" ?

my notes, should i have them, typically say either

"2+2:<forumname>"
or
"BAD"

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Example:
"1/2 @ 10max
PFR:99CO,
LIMP: A4oMP2
*Bet F/T/R OESD HU - 67 89A5T

[/ QUOTE ]
rofl

[/ QUOTE ]

don't the cool kids say "lollerskates" ?

my notes, should i have them, typically say either

"2+2:<forumname>"
or
"BAD"

[/ QUOTE ]

same...I also have a couple "Retard LAG" and "fvcking idiot" reads as well. Perhaps this is why we are sucking. Or maybe it's that we are always advising each other.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Example:
"1/2 @ 10max
PFR:99CO,
LIMP: A4oMP2
*Bet F/T/R OESD HU - 67 89A5T

[/ QUOTE ]
rofl

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I actually typed those out as an example... and i guess a put the wrong number in [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

But you get the point. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, these are really good notes. I don't think I could manage that but it probably does help. Are you able to keep up with this at more than one table. When I started on line I played at Pacific and they didn't support PT so I kept track on my own and this seems pretty similar. I only played one table though but I payed very close attention, partly because I was tracking the play of my opponents. I bet if you're dilligent with this form you play very well even if you don't necessarily use the form as a reference. What I mean is, you probably have a good idea of your opponents simply because you've been tracking him and may not even have to reference what you've written. Stay away from my table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does help with memory a lot too. I don't try and keep up with everyone at my table this detailed I allways copy/and paste it though so I know I've played them. I usually pick 2 (one at each table I'm at) and watch them about 2 orbits. Then move on to the next guy. People who have my "number" get closer attention. I play 2 tables (full ring) so yeah it's daunting to try and keep this detail on everyone. If I miss something oh well. Every note may save me money sometime this is just the easiest way to organize them for me so I'm not going through lines of text trying to make a decision.

As a note: Don't try and catch everything (you'll never do it) but try and make what you catch in a valuable manner to how you play poker.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

i always look for two things on every player:

1)what they will do when it gets checked to them on a flop they missed
2)can they check through the river with weak made hand

Having these two specific reads on every player at the table makes a lot of hands play themselves. I find it far more instructive to take a look at a player's default move when they have nothing, since that seems the be the place where I can squeeze more bets out that they would not have otherwise give up. It also lets me know who I can take free cards against.

examples
1)autobet flp w ovrs - or - chkd thru turn w sm pr - or - raisd flp HU w md pr
2)blffd R whn trn chkd thru - or - chckd thru R w mid pr

The other notes I tend to make are
what someone will cold call with,
bet/folds on the flop,
and open limps from the hijack to the button.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

In regards to Donkbets:

I've come to see that there are really only 2 versions of the donkbet, and while most players utilize both, they are usually more apt to display 1 over the other. I've classified them:

Donktarded: a donkbet bluff on a scare card, usually with some sort of weak hand like weak pair or a draw.

Donktacular: a donkbet made when one improves their hand, say turning 2 pair or completing their weak draw.

You find a lot of Donktarded's, but the Donktacular is money if you can pinpoint it. They practically scream out their hand to you, a lot of times you can rule out a flopped set or whatever when you get donked on the turn with these guys because you were in an excellent position to be check-raised.

Occasionally you will find a player that will donkbet his above average hands like Sets and big Flush draws, when you do get specific as possible about the note taking because that event is rare and most likely event specific.

Re: Can someone help me take better notes
 

you might check out THIS thread

I found this a while back and added it to favorites