Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

First hand in a new underground casino. It's a converted apartment.

Playing 1/2NL Table is 9 handed.


I'm not so sure about playing underground casinos. I'd really rather be in a home game. But then I see the dealer is a really cute asian chick. mmmmmm.
I buy in short $40 to test the waters. Everyone has me covered. If I do well I plan to buy in full.

The only seat is in the hijack (MP3) to the right of a very experienced player (he played with Daniel Negreanu when he was learing in Toronto). I recognize 2 loose players at the table. (neither of them is in this hand)

Blinds are 1/2.

1 limper in MP1 and folded to me, I see TT and raise to $8.
Experienced player in CU folds and the button calls, SB folds and BB calls, limper calls.

4 players to the flop.

Disaster!

What do you do? I didn't want to see this much action. I want my pocket TT to be against either 1 player(value) or 5+(set value). Three or Four callers is the worst situation for TT (can you see why?)

I wish I had bet 5+bb or called.

Pot $33.

Flop J63r

Flop texture looks ok. No A or K or Q. If someone has a J he's go me killed.

BB checks
MP1 checks

What would you do here? One overcard to your pair.

What is the most likely hand for the button?

Middle pair? AQ? AJ? KQ?

I decide to continuation bet. 2 players have checked and will probably fold. I don't know about the button.

How much should I bet.

If I bet half the pot $16 I get 2:1 on my money. Then I could go all in on the turn if a safe card appears. That's the smart thing to do.

But my stack is now only $32. I curse buying in short. Betting $16 will tempt good hands to put me all in anyways and I'd be getting 4:1 to call so...



I go all in (raise $32).

Button calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Please criticize my play.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet 20BB preflop on TT?

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet 20BB preflop on TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, but considering youre most likely going to see overcards on this flop, it's not exactly the best hand to play postflop with a shortstack.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I think buying in short was your biggest mistake. With a short stack you severely limit your arsenal in this situation.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet 20BB preflop on TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldn't make a standard bet that begs to be multiway in a live game that happens to be 1/5 of my stack.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet 20BB preflop on TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, but considering youre most likely going to see overcards on this flop, it's not exactly the best hand to play postflop with a shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, can we agree that betting say 7BB with TT in this situation is better?

derick

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet 20BB preflop on TT?

[/ QUOTE ]


not really, but considering youre most likely going to see overcards on this flop, it's not exactly the best hand to play postflop with a shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, can we agree that betting say 7BB with TT in this situation is better?

derick

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i think it would force more people out of the hand, but i still hate playing TT postflop with a shortstack and not be guaranteed to be HU.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, can we agree that betting say 7BB with TT in this situation is better?

derick

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but know that you're putting the rest in on this flop and hoping for folds. Thats why short stacks suck.

Why buy in Short.
 

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next time you might want to buy-in in full or push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would bet 20BB preflop on TT?

[/ QUOTE ]


not really, but considering youre most likely going to see overcards on this flop, it's not exactly the best hand to play postflop with a shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, can we agree that betting say 7BB with TT in this situation is better?

derick

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i think it would force more people out of the hand, but i still hate playing TT postflop with a shortstack and not be guaranteed to be HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all the arguments put forward as to why short stack play hobbles you.

But I bought in short.

Why?

1. New *underground* casino. I'm not saying that it's crooked. I'm just saying I don't know.

2. I consider myself able to hold my own playing a shortstack Ed Miller style.

3. I recognized 2 loose players. The fodder of correct short stack play.

4. I usually buy in short, test things, make observations *then* go kill the game. Do you guys buy in full into an unknown situation?

I'm not saying that the arguments put forth for buying in full are not valid. It's more +ev for a good player to buy in full. I'm just trying to explain why I bought in short in this situation.

What I'd really rather do is find some home games around Toronto/Hamilton so I don't have to go to underground casinos.


derick

Re: Why buy in Short.
 

oh i know why you bought in short and i dont blame you!

but it really makes playing this particular hand quite hard. you raise preflop with a good deal of your stack and you are pretty much stuck to throwing the rest in on the flop and hoping for the best.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

How much is "full" in this particular game?

Slightly off-topic, but I think your chances of getting cheated are lower in an underground room with a house dealer than in a home game. I would much rather play in the former than the latter despite rake and tipping costs.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, can we agree that betting say 7BB with TT in this situation is better?

derick

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but know that you're putting the rest in on this flop and hoping for folds. Thats why short stacks suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the betting sequence should go something like.

Bet 7bb preflop.

Get 1 caller

Pot size 15bb

Continuation Bet the rest, 13 bb post flop.

I address the suckiness of short stacks in my post above.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much is "full" in this particular game?

Slightly off-topic, but I think your chances of getting cheated are lower in an underground room with a house dealer than in a home game. I would much rather play in the former than the latter despite rake and tipping costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full is $200 (100bb)

Min buying is $40 (20bb)


Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]


Pot $33.

Flop J63r

Flop texture looks ok. No A or K or Q. If someone has a J he's go me killed.

BB checks
MP1 checks

What would you do here? One overcard to your pair.

What is the most likely hand for the button?

Middle pair? AQ? AJ? KQ?

I decide to continuation bet. 2 players have checked and will probably fold. I don't know about the button.

How much should I bet.

If I bet half the pot $16 I get 2:1 on my money. Then I could go all in on the turn if a safe card appears. That's the smart thing to do.

But my stack is now only $32. I curse buying in short. Betting $16 will tempt good hands to put me all in anyways and I'd be getting 4:1 to call so...



I go all in (raise $32).

Button calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Please criticize my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think of my postflop play, Would you guys push or check?

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Pot $33.

Flop J63r

Flop texture looks ok. No A or K or Q. If someone has a J he's go me killed.

BB checks
MP1 checks

What would you do here? One overcard to your pair.

What is the most likely hand for the button?

Middle pair? AQ? AJ? KQ?

I decide to continuation bet. 2 players have checked and will probably fold. I don't know about the button.

How much should I bet.

If I bet half the pot $16 I get 2:1 on my money. Then I could go all in on the turn if a safe card appears. That's the smart thing to do.

But my stack is now only $32. I curse buying in short. Betting $16 will tempt good hands to put me all in anyways and I'd be getting 4:1 to call so...



I go all in (raise $32).

Button calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Please criticize my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think of my postflop play, Would you guys push or check?

[/ QUOTE ]

depends on the hand range you can put the button on - since you havent really seen much play this can be difficult.

probably check/call a reasonable bet and reassess the turn.

.edit or maybe just push and maximize the FE

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Pot $33.

Flop J63r

Flop texture looks ok. No A or K or Q. If someone has a J he's go me killed.

BB checks
MP1 checks

What would you do here? One overcard to your pair.

What is the most likely hand for the button?

Middle pair? AQ? AJ? KQ?

I decide to continuation bet. 2 players have checked and will probably fold. I don't know about the button.

How much should I bet.

If I bet half the pot $16 I get 2:1 on my money. Then I could go all in on the turn if a safe card appears. That's the smart thing to do.

But my stack is now only $32. I curse buying in short. Betting $16 will tempt good hands to put me all in anyways and I'd be getting 4:1 to call so...



I go all in (raise $32).

Button calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Please criticize my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think of my postflop play, Would you guys push or check?

[/ QUOTE ]

depends on the hand range you can put the button on - since you havent really seen much play this can be difficult.

probably check/call a reasonable bet and reassess the turn.

.edit or maybe just push and maximize the FE

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting checking and making a push if you get a non A,K,Q turn?

I really really hate giving a free card to the limpers but I guess you could be behind.

I have no reads on anyone in this hand since this is my first hand.

But this table seem to be good. People are talking, happy and laughing - And drinking!

Oh yeah, I noticed a half empty beer beside the button.

derick

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

with 1 limper i'd have made it $10 preflop.

pushing the flop is the only way you're going to win it from there.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much is "full" in this particular game?

Slightly off-topic, but I think your chances of getting cheated are lower in an underground room with a house dealer than in a home game. I would much rather play in the former than the latter despite rake and tipping costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full is $200 (100bb)

Min buying is $40 (20bb)


Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked what full was because sometimes its only $100 and, in that case, I'd always buy in for the max because even the max is short. Buying short and then topping off to max later is also a bit of a tell in that anybody paying attention will know that you wanted to see how the game was and when you rebuy, you're telegraphing that you feel you can beat it. This encourages those who paid attention to play somewhat differently against you as they know you have a clue but they also know that you don't know for sure if they do. Basically, my rule of thumb in live games is to not do anything that would draw attention to me as a knowing what I'm doing.

Re: home games vs. organized (casino, card clubs both legal and illegal, etc.):
In home games, everybody is more or less a regular. Sometimes these regulars are colluding against whoever they can invite into the group and, once they've fleeced one sucker, they're out to find another. Obviously, not all games are like this but its out there. Even if just 4/10 of the people in the home game are playing together, that puts you at a severe disadvantage. Add in that the players are dealing and you suddenly have to keep a sharp eye out for stacked decks, dealing seconds, and all the other sleight-of-hand cheating that can (not necessarily will) occur. A house dealer will usually have no interest in who wins the pot (as they are paid by the house and/or by tips) so there is a lesser chance of anything dishonest happening with the deal itself.

In any game you play (from home games with guys you've known your whole life to the Bellagio against 9 unknowns), you need to protect yourself from any dishonesty. You have to keep at least a cursory eye out for anything that compromises the integrity of the game. In a place where the games are raked, it is in the best interests of the house to run a clean game and protect their customers. In this respect, you have a partner (the house) in running a straight game and you no longer are the only one watching out for your interests.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Having spent a lot of time in both, I also prefer underground games with paid dealers. The main reason is that you are much less likely to be cheated (although it's still possible and you have to keep your eyes open). Players dealing their own cards invite card mechanics to take shots (bottom dealing, hold outs, etc). Also, you are more likely to run into collusion cheating when entering established home games.

In general, most of the people willing to go to the trouble (and take the risk) of running an underground game are trying to run their game like a business. They make good money from the rake, and they don't want the game killed off by cheaters and so they actively help try to prevent it.

Home games are easier to setup quickly, sometimes by scumbags with their friends if they think they can cheat a good player out of some money.

My personal policy now is that I won't play in any home games for anything but trivial stakes, unless I personally know the person setting up the game, and trust them fairly well. OTOH, I play in several underground games for pretty large stakes (larger than I play online anyway) fairly often. The biggest drawback to underground games, is that they are much more likely to be robbed (I've been in two robbery's now), but home games can be robbed too, so I'll stick with the underground games.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

You must type faster than me!

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much is "full" in this particular game?

Slightly off-topic, but I think your chances of getting cheated are lower in an underground room with a house dealer than in a home game. I would much rather play in the former than the latter despite rake and tipping costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full is $200 (100bb)

Min buying is $40 (20bb)


Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked what full was because sometimes its only $100 and, in that case, I'd always buy in for the max because even the max is short. Buying short and then topping off to max later is also a bit of a tell in that anybody paying attention will know that you wanted to see how the game was and when you rebuy, you're telegraphing that you feel you can beat it. This encourages those who paid attention to play somewhat differently against you as they know you have a clue but they also know that you don't know for sure if they do. Basically, my rule of thumb in live games is to not do anything that would draw attention to me as a knowing what I'm doing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow great advice about buyin, Thanks.

I had been always buying for min. And then usually winning or topping up. Now that I think of it when I start with $40 and win $800 it causes a lot of remarks.

[ QUOTE ]


Re: home games vs. organized (casino, card clubs both legal and illegal, etc.):
In home games, everybody is more or less a regular. Sometimes these regulars are colluding against whoever they can invite into the group and, once they've fleeced one sucker, they're out to find another. Obviously, not all games are like this but its out there. Even if just 4/10 of the people in the home game are playing together, that puts you at a severe disadvantage. Add in that the players are dealing and you suddenly have to keep a sharp eye out for stacked decks, dealing seconds, and all the other sleight-of-hand cheating that can (not necessarily will) occur. A house dealer will usually have no interest in who wins the pot (as they are paid by the house and/or by tips) so there is a lesser chance of anything dishonest happening with the deal itself.

In any game you play (from home games with guys you've known your whole life to the Bellagio against 9 unknowns), you need to protect yourself from any dishonesty. You have to keep at least a cursory eye out for anything that compromises the integrity of the game. In a place where the games are raked, it is in the best interests of the house to run a clean game and protect their customers. In this respect, you have a partner (the house) in running a straight game and you no longer are the only one watching out for your interests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points!


Have you ever seen cheating? How often do you think it occurs?

derick

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Having spent a lot of time in both, I also prefer underground games with paid dealers. The main reason is that you are much less likely to be cheated (although it's still possible and you have to keep your eyes open). Players dealing their own cards invite card mechanics to take shots (bottom dealing, hold outs, etc). Also, you are more likely to run into collusion cheating when entering established home games.

In general, most of the people willing to go to the trouble (and take the risk) of running an underground game are trying to run their game like a business. They make good money from the rake, and they don't want the game killed off by cheaters and so they actively help try to prevent it.

Home games are easier to setup quickly, sometimes by scumbags with their friends if they think they can cheat a good player out of some money.

My personal policy now is that I won't play in any home games for anything but trivial stakes, unless I personally know the person setting up the game, and trust them fairly well. OTOH, I play in several underground games for pretty large stakes (larger than I play online anyway) fairly often. The biggest drawback to underground games, is that they are much more likely to be robbed (I've been in two robbery's now), but home games can be robbed too, so I'll stick with the underground games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow excellent post too!

How much cheating have you seen?

Tell us about the robberies please!

What should you do when there is a robbery?
How can you protect yourself?

Sorry if these are naive questions but this is all new to me.


derick

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

I have never been robbed, nor have I ever been sure somebody was cheating. I suspected collusion at a 3-table card club in Boston (a game no longer running) so I switched tables to a tougher lineup that I was more comfortable with.

Not many crappy things of this nature have happened to me because I make an effort to avoid situations where they might.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

Don't buy in for $40 in a 1-2 game without a really really really good reason. It creates all these weird postlfop situations that you don't want to deal with. See OP post.

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Having spent a lot of time in both, I also prefer underground games with paid dealers. The main reason is that you are much less likely to be cheated (although it's still possible and you have to keep your eyes open). Players dealing their own cards invite card mechanics to take shots (bottom dealing, hold outs, etc). Also, you are more likely to run into collusion cheating when entering established home games.

In general, most of the people willing to go to the trouble (and take the risk) of running an underground game are trying to run their game like a business. They make good money from the rake, and they don't want the game killed off by cheaters and so they actively help try to prevent it.

Home games are easier to setup quickly, sometimes by scumbags with their friends if they think they can cheat a good player out of some money.

My personal policy now is that I won't play in any home games for anything but trivial stakes, unless I personally know the person setting up the game, and trust them fairly well. OTOH, I play in several underground games for pretty large stakes (larger than I play online anyway) fairly often. The biggest drawback to underground games, is that they are much more likely to be robbed (I've been in two robbery's now), but home games can be robbed too, so I'll stick with the underground games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow excellent post too!

How much cheating have you seen?

Tell us about the robberies please!

What should you do when there is a robbery?
How can you protect yourself?

Sorry if these are naive questions but this is all new to me.


derick

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop drop and roll!

Re: Can I run over your game fools!!? Live 1/2NL TT from the hijack.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you expand on why you prefer underground casinos to home games? (Feel free to hijack this thread I think I now know the correct line for TT (bet more than 4bb preflop correct?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Having spent a lot of time in both, I also prefer underground games with paid dealers. The main reason is that you are much less likely to be cheated (although it's still possible and you have to keep your eyes open). Players dealing their own cards invite card mechanics to take shots (bottom dealing, hold outs, etc). Also, you are more likely to run into collusion cheating when entering established home games.

In general, most of the people willing to go to the trouble (and take the risk) of running an underground game are trying to run their game like a business. They make good money from the rake, and they don't want the game killed off by cheaters and so they actively help try to prevent it.

Home games are easier to setup quickly, sometimes by scumbags with their friends if they think they can cheat a good player out of some money.

My personal policy now is that I won't play in any home games for anything but trivial stakes, unless I personally know the person setting up the game, and trust them fairly well. OTOH, I play in several underground games for pretty large stakes (larger than I play online anyway) fairly often. The biggest drawback to underground games, is that they are much more likely to be robbed (I've been in two robbery's now), but home games can be robbed too, so I'll stick with the underground games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow excellent post too!

How much cheating have you seen?

Tell us about the robberies please!

What should you do when there is a robbery?
How can you protect yourself?

Sorry if these are naive questions but this is all new to me.


derick

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop drop and roll!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I guess that covers lads packing tactical nuclear devices.

What about other situations?