KK, when to let it go
 

Should I let this go on the turn or chase my 2 outs?

Party Poker 0.15/0.30 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds</font>, Hero raises</font>, SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)</font>
SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)</font>
SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)</font>
SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

you cant call that turn if your gonna fold the river, you have to call down on the river or just let it go on the turn.

flop is raise/fold too....

whats your read on SB?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
you cant call that turn if your gonna fold the river, you have to call down on the river or just let it go on the turn.

flop is raise/fold too....

whats your read on SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree with the raise/fold the flop. Table and SB are a bunch of calling stations. This is a beginner table on PP where I'm clearing a bonus [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Having 6-9 players in the pot PF is driving me nuts and I'm feeling lucky to be even after 1500 hands or so.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Flop is not raise or fold. Why do you think that?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

cap preflop and raise the flop.
given your play, bad fold on the river, you definitely need to show this down.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Why do people want to raise this flop? To save 1SB in getting to showdown?

The flop call/turn call/river fold is terrible - call the river if you get that far (the river is more-or-less a brick)

fold the flop though - SB 3-bet you, and you're certainly behind with no odds to catch your 2 outer (with another player calling already)

cap preflop too - KK is an awesome hand

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

because your hand isnt improving?

oh yeah and why didnt you cap preflop, i just noticed that.... always cap KK

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Grunch. Cap PF man!

To state the obvious, if one of the villans on the turn has an A, you don't have two outs.

What are your reads on SB? Would he 3-bet with KQ? With TT-JJ? The ace on the turn decreases the odds that SB has a big A. I would probably call down, though the presence of BB worries me. What's he tagging along with here, a little A? Smaller PP?

If you call a bet on the turn, you've gotta call on the river.

Edit: after reading the other posts, I think that a good case can be made for folding the flop. Given a "default donk" read for SB, I would think that most of his 3-betting range includes an A.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

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Why do people want to raise this flop? To save 1SB in getting to showdown?

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i said raise or fold read dependent. against most vils i would fold it at this point

against a more maniacal vil, raising the flop can accomplish a few things:
1) cheaper showdown
2) free card
3) chance to fold them if they dont have an ace
4) better knowledge if SB 3bets the flop we can peel and fold the turn ui, or if he calls and leads the turn we can safely fold ui

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Let it go? Dude, raise the flop. Dont fold on the river getting 13:1 to call. THey played so passive it seems obvious to me they dont have trip As.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
THey played so passive it seems obvious to me they dont have trip As.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB led the betting every round, and got no action. How can you rule out Ax?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Not capping preflop was bad; not calling the river was worse IMO.

A read would obviously be very helpful here. Without one, I don't hate a call down.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is not raise or fold. Why do you think that?

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Yeah, it's like a) raise, call a 3-bet, fold turn UI, or b) call to the river, or c) fold.

Regarding a) we let villain define the hand for 1.5 more big bets, and can easily fold the turn UI. We still have 3-ish outs in the bdsd and set.

On b) We pay 2.5 big bets to find out what villain has (or BB's weak ace for that matter)

c) EV=0, but leaves us wondering what villain had.

What I don't understand is why we are calling the turn and /not/ calling the river.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
On b) We pay 2.5 big bets to find out what villain has (or BB's weak ace for that matter)

[/ QUOTE ]

there are two villains. doesnt this change this strategy?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

the flop raise if for value. folding the flop would be pretty bad. we have no reason to assume we're drawing to 2 outs here, that's not an accurate assesment.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
the flop raise if for value. folding the flop would be pretty bad. we have no reason to assume we're drawing to 2 outs here, that's not an accurate assesment.

[/ QUOTE ]
raising an AQx flop with KK against the small blind who 3-bet us preflop is only for value when he has the other KK (and will fold it) and the other guy does not have an ace, either.

against 99/TT/JJ/QQ/AA, AK/AQ, this is not for value because he'll simply fold when he's behind and crush your dreams when he's ahead.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Let it go, pot's too small.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]


Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds</font>, Hero raises</font>, SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls .



[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't you raise here?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let it go, pot's too small.

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instead of letting this thread die with this as its last post, let me bump this to remind everyone how not to reply to hand posts.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

I dont know the dynamics at 0.15/0.30 but I am just calling down from the flop as a standard play. And ofc I cap preflop. The hand would probably play a little different after that.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds</font>, Hero raises</font>, SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls .



[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't you raise here?

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uh, yes [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

getting 3-bet on the flop is not crushing my dreams. I can get away from the hand later. granted, I can definitely see the case for calling the flop, but that's just going to lead to a call down. my default play in this situation is probably raising the flop, because it's WA/WB.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

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the flop raise if for value

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my default play in this situation is probably raising the flop, because it's WA/WB.

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first, this is inconsistent.

raising for value only works when your opponent will call your raises with worse hands. in this case, even halfway decent players can fold JJ and under on this board. so where's the value in raising?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

I do think it's possible to get called by a worse hand. I'm not assuming necessarily that my opponent plays "halfway decent." But my full assesment of the situation is going to depend on any reads.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
cap preflop and raise the flop.
given your play, bad fold on the river, you definitely need to show this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding a river call. Is this true even after an overcall? Is this true because of the limit? It would seem to me that once you consider all the betting, a river bet, and overcall, isn't our hero already behind? I agree that if it was HU on the river, I would have to make a crying call.

I'm asking, as I am trying to learn how to save 1 or 2 BBs here or there.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

grunch

given the pf action the SB could have a Q, but with his 3 betting hands you are likely beat with tyope fo flop,

river fold is good and with the BB calling you are likely beat, I dont think 13:1 is enough to justify that 2 ppl dont have the A

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Let it go, pot's too small.



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instead of letting this thread die with this as its last post, let me bump this to remind everyone how not to reply to hand posts..

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I feel his post was great. Doesn't SSHE/Ed Miller stress the first question you should ask yourself regarding any hand decision no matter what is

"How big is the pot?"

That should be a mantra oft-repeated... no?

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

i think the point was more that it was so short and shallow.... it was almost like it was me posting through another account

Edit: Btw ive reconsidered my initial analysis. not sure i fully thought it through regarding WA/WB issues. but the reason i dont understand the conceptual application here is because there are three players in the pot. as such most wa/wb lines arent relevant.

if anyone could explain this id be grateful....

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

Hey Mikey,

Welcome to the forums.

This flop is bad for hero's hand, and I agree with you on that point. SB did 3 bet pre-flop, but he could have hands like JJ, TT, and because the pot is big and we are getting very good pot odds on this flop, we don't want to fold for just one bet when we know that SB could still be betting with a weaker hand.

The A on the turn is actually a good card for us since it reduces the chances that we are up against a Ax hand. The SB is still betting, but nobody raised him yet, so he could still be betting is Jacks or whatever. How about the caller? Well this is 0.15/0.30, so a player's call generally means that he has... well 2 cards. Ok not that bad but you get the idea.

Anyways, given that the A is a good card, and that nobody other than SB showed aggression, and SB could still be betting a weaker hand we can call down in this big pot.

On the river we have to call, even if we are likely beat. The pot is so big that we need to be pretty sure that we are beat in order to fold here. The decision to call or fold is really on the turn (2 big bets) and not on the river.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold the flop though - SB 3-bet you, and you're certainly behind with no odds to catch your 2 outer (with another player calling already)


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I don't like the fold on this flop, this is 0.15/0.30. A preflop 3 bettor, does not necessarily slow down because there are overs to his pair on the board. He could very well be taking a stab with JJ or TT. The flop caller has a very wide range of hands here.

I think the size of the pot justifies a call (closing the action) given that there is still a chance that we are still ahead vs these opponents.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well this is 0.15/0.30, so a player's call generally means that he has... well 2 cards. Ok not that bad but you get the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right though. It is quite frequent at the quasi-nano-limits for three (or more) to showdown and the third guy always has like bottom pair or a mid-pocket pair or something. I have no idea what these guys are thinking, but its mega +EV.

Hence, an overcall in nano-limit doesn't necessarily mean you're beat. Further, the, um, SB was it? or BB... anyway, the post flop aggressor in this hand betting into 2 people doesn't necessarily mean he's holding the goods either. Most players don't think that complex at that level.

Based upon the above, and just a wild theory I thought up while sitting here bored, I think just calling down may be a valid argument. You are probably ahead of one of these guys and you are probably planning on showing this down. I know I would plan to show it down once the second ace showed up. I want the third guy in calling with his pocket sevens or pair of queens or gut shot straight draw to help increase the size of the pot and at least make my call down worth it.

However, if your read is that these two guys are particularly weak (and I mean very weak - which you sometimes find), raising could force out an A2o or whatever (at least on the flop).

Then I would cry when they showed an A3s and an A6o.

Edit: Check that, I would cry when one of those guys showed a 23o for twos over aces.

Re: KK, when to let it go
 

I'd cap preflop, and then if SB bets and gets an overcall, I'd peel because AQx flop could make some split Q pairs or straight draws. If SB bets out again and gets overcalled again on the turn, I'd fold. Your not winning 1 time in 5.5 and thats what your getting if you have to call 2BB to make 11. It might get raised on the river also, which would actually be good though, because then you could fold with confidence.