77 with position against a TAG.
 

This hand was unpopular with brettbrettr. MP2 had the appearances of a a solid TAG over a small # of hands. My reads aren't great however since I'm a little distracted. The button, SB and BB were all loose.

The conventional ABC play here is to RR to isolate. While I do often RR here, I took a different line.

Couple of thoughts:
- I don't really mind the callers behind with a middle pair that can play well on a lot of flops and is great for set value in a crowd.

- I have great relative position to the raisor and I will likely get the button at any rate.

- The times I get capped by AK and smooth called by a big pair really hurt.

So I decided to just call this time and play poker post flop.

Party Poker Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: BigEndian is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises, BigEndian calls, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, BigEndian raises...

Who hates this? Who says, "meh"? Who wants to have my children?

If you are so adamant with 3-betting PF, why is it better than my line? Bearing in mind of course that cash games aren't about the # of pots you win.

- Jim

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

I like a 3 bet here for several reasons. One, it will probably get the hand hu which is conducive to a mid pocket pair. Secondly, you will get to see how villain reacts to a 3 bet, and this will greatly help you play out the hand. Also, it creates a bluffing opportunity; if your opponent holds a hand like 88 its gonna be real hard for him to call a bet on an a j 9 flop.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

I dislike it because we'll rarely get all of them to coldcall behind us, we really want to be either heads up or against a large field with this holding. I'm guessing on average 2 of them will call, which isn't really optimal. Also you don't get the blind's dead money much if you don't reraise.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

FWIW, not isolating here is a huge mistake.

If MP2 had just limped, I can see you limping behind. But when he open raises, your CC just allows the AT, KJ, T9s, etc hands in too easy. Those are the hands that will lead to your demise.

Good relative position to the PFR will not overcome your ability to dodge the middle cards on the flop.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

Hi Jim,

I personally like to 3-bet here preflop. Even with a loose button, small blind, and big blind, it would take a REALLY loose combination of players to call three bets cold. Isolation and position with a pair has great value in these spots.

Also note that even if the blinds were tight, a three-bet would still be good because remember your coldcall will fatten the pot enticing them to call with more hands.

What is the main purpose to coldcalling preflop? To do exactly what you did on the flop actually; raise the aggressor's flop bet to try to knock out the field. Note however, that you could have already done this by three-betting preflop and that it becomes MORE difficult to try to knock people off a hand once they've already seen a flop when you allow them in.

However, not three-betting is not a "huge" mistake as one poster mentioned. A "huge" mistake would be to fold, and if anything playing this hand gives you positive expectation, though I suspect not as great as three betting would have.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Kailia

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

[ QUOTE ]


If you are so adamant with 3-betting PF, why is it better than my line?
- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jim,

It turns out that your line didn't seem to bad this time because you got a favorable flop. Without initiative preflop you're going to need favorable flops to play your hand well. 3 bet it preflop for all the reasons others have mentioned already. Also it can be good for Shania since some bad players (preflop fishies and weak tighties) think it's crazy to 3-bet your mid pocket pair preflop and they might think your a bit of a maniac and give you too much action later on.

-WT

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

well, if there were several limpers in front of the MP2, I might see the reasoning for calling with 77, as we will be able to win big if we hit and have a nice big fat field to play with. Since it is opened from MP2, I really would rather three bet PF and take control of the hand. I also want to shut the button out and gain position for the rest of the hand on a late opener.

I like the flop play, but we now have a big pot going. What is our plan for the rest of the hand if a paint card hits. A cold caller is getting 5-1immediate on their coldcall, so that is enough to peel with overcards if the MP2 also is assured of coming along. I think this entire situation would'be been solved by three betting PF

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

fold preflop IMO
You cannot be sure the passives left to act will play. Even 75%VPIP guys fold 1 in 4, more often to a raise. Set value is decreased. A good discussion on a somewhat similar type of hand is going on in HUSH right Cold-Calling small pairs

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

I believe raising the flop is the correct play.

PS: Preflop: Raise or fold.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

This is a three-bet or fold preflop. Either he's so tight that you have to fold, or you reraise to isolate. If you had something like KQs, ATs, KJs, then fine, I don't mind the colodcall. But allowing a third player in with 77 is devastating to your preflop pot equity. So he's either tight enough that you have to fold, or he's not. There's no middle ground.

The raise on the flop is standard.

Will

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

I always thought the nightmare scenario with a pair like 77 is being sandwiched between two good hands. You must like a challenge.

Luckily, the flop comes 8 high, so you might get off the hook. God help you if Button slowplayed anything.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

OK...I'm playing with pokerstove today

Your hand 77 v an Opponent open-raising 11.6% of hands (88+,A8s+,KTs+,QJs+,ATo+,KJo+)
=equity of 44% (77) v 56% (Open-raiser)

Your hand (77) v open raiser v one 50% donk (any suited, all broadway off, any ace, off suit connectors 65+)
=equity of 33% (77) v 43% (open-raiser) v 24% (donk)

Your hand (77) v open raiser v two 50%s donk (any suited, all broadway off, any ace, off suit connectors 65+)
=equity of 26% (77) v 34% (open-raiser) v 20%X2 (donks)

Your hand (77) v open raiser v three 50%s donk (any suited, all broadway off, any ace, off suit connectors 65+)
=equity of 21% (77) v 28% (open-raiser) v 17%X3 (donks)


maybe, the call is not so bad. Maybe, it is. You go from being an underdog on your money, to being just above even money on what you put in the pot preflop.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

PokerStove is nice but it won't help you to know where you are in the hand when 2 overcards land. 33% equity is a bit deceiving IMO. Its true that you have the equity but you'll have a harder time taking this hand to the river against 2 opponents, especially if some overcards show up.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

what is alll thise 3bet or fold nonsense? folding is clearly worse than coldcalling.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

Here are some more thoughts:

- Would you bet tempted to make this play with a bigger pair?

- One poster specifically said I would be in pain of a bigger pair smooth called behind me. This is, of course, unlikely. But it weighs in about as much as if I 3-bet and was either capped by AK from MP2 or smooth-called with a big pair. I would even argue that the big pair smooth call is more likely if a heads up situation with MP2.

- If I'm 3-bet behind, I have a much clearer picture where I stand yes? Than if I 3-bet and am cold called behind.

- In a more general poker sense, how does position of the open raisor and my position relative to the button effect this hand.

I haven't seen anyone post something that makes me think one way is definitively better than the other. I think there are good arguments for both sides. I do both and change it up.

- Jim

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

If my seat sucks and I have loose players on my right I like to ditch this preflop. I think the flop raise, however, is very straightforward and valuable. I'm probably mucking to a three bet, however.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

(a) I haven't read any replies

(b) not 3-betting here is fine or at least close enough that... whatever.

(c) the pot isn't so big that your raise shouldn't chase away the button and potentially buy you some outs.

(d) you're ahead a lot here.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

[ QUOTE ]
One poster specifically said I would be in pain of a bigger pair smooth called behind me. This is, of course, unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens to me all the freaking time. Though it happens when I am MP2. Maybe I should just rejoice that I didn't get drilled preflop. The rest of your point: fair enough.

[ QUOTE ]

- If I'm 3-bet behind, I have a much clearer picture where I stand yes? Than if I 3-bet and am cold called behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the best case for the cold-call. But does it outweigh the pain of taking a flop 3-handed for two bets with a middle pair?

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't seen anyone post something that makes me think one way is definitively better than the other. I think there are good arguments for both sides. I do both and change it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm coming around to your point of view. But here's something to consider--what do you do if the flop comes J high instead of 8 high?

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

as far as a J high flop...it's much easier to raise on. I believe matthew Hilger had a good chapter on this in his book. One high card flops are good to bluff and/or be aggressive with, especially TAGs. The idea is that the high card could hit a decent hand that would scare the opponent who would fear you have at least that card and might have him reverse dominated. If people play back, you are in trouble. But, you know where you stand.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

I played exactly the same way in a hand today with 88 EP raises, 1 cold-caller in mine and I call from the CO. 3 to flop and I raise a jack high flop after pre-flop raisor made his continuation bet.

So I have played this the same way but as I know nothing we could both be wrong!

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

The other thing I'm thinking of, though, is that you give the BB excellent odds to come cause trouble with a hand that is difficult to read--though you still have pretty good relative position on him.

This strategy is still a bit vulnerable a tricky Button player. A delayed raise of a hand like A8s or an overpair like 99-JJ can be kinda painful.

I'm persuaded, though, that this play isn't as bad as some people are saying it is.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

there r only 2 ways 2 play this hand FOLD or 3 BET,period.if it is a calling station who raised or a player u know only raises w top pairs and wont raise w even big slick then its an easy fold.however,if its an aggressive player like myself then 3 bet.Why?A)isolate B)get info preflop on the other players behind u(I.E.if some one caps it ur most likly against a higher pocket pair so u know 2 muck ur hand on the flop if u dont spike a 7 or C)to take control of the hand from the original raiser he or she may fear u have big slick if an A or K hyit5s the flop and they have pocket 88 thru qq or they may have big slick and they miss the flop. an example from real life. im playing at the taj in atlantic city i have pocket 88 in utg2 utg raises and i 3 bet(raiser wasnt a calling station)all fold and utg calls.flop comes A K x utg bets and i RAISE!!!utg mucks face up showing pocket qq and says "nice hand"i muck face down and scoop up the pot! this is an extreme example of why its always important 2 take control of the hand.and keep ur kids i got enough brats already thank u.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

Good grief. Are you posting from your cell phone?

Try to use some spacing or capitals or something.

Re: 77 with position against a TAG.
 

[ QUOTE ]

- I don't really mind the callers behind with a middle pair that can play well on a lot of flops and is great for set value in a crowd.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this would be the part I disagree with. 77 doens't play well on that many flops. And how do you expect to "get a crowd for set value" when the previous 5 people have folded?