anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

i don't mean as your summer job or paying the rent in college, i'm talking about small stakes no limit poker as your full time employment. It's definately possible... i'm convinced you could live quite comfortably without going above 200NL, without playing more than 4 tables, and without playing 40+ hrs/week.

any small stakes pros out there?

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

5PTBB/100 at 200NL is...20$/hr per table?

Not including rakeback, thats 80$/hr 4 tabling. Add in rakeback and thats probably another 10-15$ an hour.

Anybody good enough to pull that win rate and willing to put in the hours could very easily make a living.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

As a side note - if you're self employed you can find lots of ways to pay way less taxes than you would in a 9-5. So if a SSNL player is pulling 50k/year from the tables, it might be the equivelant of someone making 60-65k a year at a regular job.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a side note - if you're self employed you can find lots of ways to pay way less taxes than you would in a 9-5. So if a SSNL player is pulling 50k/year from the tables, it might be the equivelant of someone making 60-65k a year at a regular job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at 200NL, it is certainly possible, but I would not want to do it.

You may pay less taxes, but poker does not offer health, dental, or a retirement plan, so that may be awash.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

You can get those things yourself...extremely easily.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a side note - if you're self employed you can find lots of ways to pay way less taxes than you would in a 9-5. So if a SSNL player is pulling 50k/year from the tables, it might be the equivelant of someone making 60-65k a year at a regular job.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would say the opposite. if i'm making 50k at my regular job, to equal the pay and the benefits i'd want to be making 60-65k from poker to call it even money-wise. Although there's some balancing out the other way to, with no commute / cheaper meals etc.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

incorrect. You would need to make a lot less because you're not giving 30%+ of your income away in federal/sate/local taxes. Further, you're not spending as much on Gas, dry cleaning, etc. So to net it all out, increase your tax free income by 40%, subtract out what health insurance is going to cost you and do the comparison.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
incorrect. You would need to make a lot less because you're not giving 30%+ of your income away in federal/sate/local taxes. Further, you're not spending as much on Gas, dry cleaning, etc. So to net it all out, increase your tax free income by 40%, subtract out what health insurance is going to cost you and do the comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not gonna pay taxes, huh? Great plan. You'll be a pro in no time.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]


i would say the opposite. if i'm making 50k at my regular job, to equal the pay and the benefits i'd want to be making 60-65k from poker to call it even money-wise. Although there's some balancing out the other way to, with no commute / cheaper meals etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd be surprised out how cheaply you can get benefits. Any healthy male in his 20s should be able to get a high deductible ($2500) health plan for less than $100 per month. Assume you spend $1,000 per year on medical expense, your total out of pocket is $2k.

Add up your other benefit costs, and unless your company is extremely generous, I'd bet you'd trade three or four thousand a year for no benefits.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
incorrect. You would need to make a lot less because you're not giving 30%+ of your income away in federal/sate/local taxes. Further, you're not spending as much on Gas, dry cleaning, etc. So to net it all out, increase your tax free income by 40%, subtract out what health insurance is going to cost you and do the comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

All this + wirteoffs are your friend. Write off your cable internet because thats where you play poker. You could probably get away with cable TV, any poker-related gas mileage, new computers/monitors/software, etc etc. All sorts of options are available to you when you're your own boss.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Go ahead and don't take any deductions. As you know I'm sure, poker winnings are taxed as ordinary income, not gambling winnings, and therefore you can take any and all reasonable deductions. If you use a halfway decent CPA to do your taxes and keep records of all expenses you should not be paying anywhere near the taxes you would if you earned that money as a salaried employee.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

whether you're paying 30% of your winnings to uncle sam or bypassing him alltogether, the point is you can make a decent living from SSNL without going to heroic measures (8-tabling 10 hours a day). I'm just curious if anyone is doing it.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

I think there are a lot less small stakes pros than people think.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Anyone making a living playing small stakes could very easily move up in stakes after a month of three of 40 hour weeks. Why would you stay at smaller stakes when you are bankrolled for higher, even after deducting living expenses+entertainment?

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
any small stakes pros out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. I don't plan on doing it forever, but for the next 5 months or so

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

it's been done before!

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone making a living playing small stakes could very easily move up in stakes after a month of three of 40 hour weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose so, but I enjoy a 5-hour work week

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Im assuming these ssnl pros are over at mhnl now

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

I love it as a part time summer/school job, I think I'd hate it full time.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Go ahead and don't take any deductions. As you know I'm sure, poker winnings are taxed as ordinary income, not gambling winnings, and therefore you can take any and all reasonable deductions. If you use a halfway decent CPA to do your taxes and keep records of all expenses you should not be paying anywhere near the taxes you would if you earned that money as a salaried employee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, actually, I've heard if you can prove that you're a professional gambler, your gambling activities will count as earned income (not as unearned income).

As for small stakes full-time, I definitely think it's possible. I've been doing it for 2 months to pay the rent/food in college, and just moved up to $100NL.

Even with my mediocre play, I crunched the numbers and came up with $30/hr off 4-tables, I do it 8PM-4AM EST, so there's your 8-hour shift. There are even good tables up until around 7AM. Rakeback will be at least another $5-$6, so you can realisticly pull $35/hr. If you take care of yourself and play a little overtime you can easily pull 80 gees a year.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
5PTBB/100 at 200NL is...20$/hr per table?

Not including rakeback, thats 80$/hr 4 tabling. Add in rakeback and thats probably another 10-15$ an hour.

Anybody good enough to pull that win rate and willing to put in the hours could very easily make a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

these computations of yearly earn never work out to be accurate, and everyone overestimates the number of hours they will put in.

to the guy who says he's going to play 8pm to 4am and make 80K, you are not, that is insane. the reason is that you will kill yourself far before you ever get to even 30K, mortals just can't play that much poker for more than a week. if you can, (i consider 3 hours a day for 6 days a week a huge week) then more power to you, but i would be absolutely miserable doing so.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Just because you cant doesnt mean others can.

I've been playing 8 hours a day 5 days a week for the past 4 months.

Before that I was averaging 90-100 hours a month. I went pro in march.

The hours are easier and easier to put in as the months go on.

If mortals cant play that much poker...maybe me (and quite a few others) are just immortal?

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5PTBB/100 at 200NL is...20$/hr per table?

Not including rakeback, thats 80$/hr 4 tabling. Add in rakeback and thats probably another 10-15$ an hour.

Anybody good enough to pull that win rate and willing to put in the hours could very easily make a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

these computations of yearly earn never work out to be accurate, and everyone overestimates the number of hours they will put in.

to the guy who says he's going to play 8pm to 4am and make 80K, you are not, that is insane. the reason is that you will kill yourself far before you ever get to even 30K, mortals just can't play that much poker for more than a week. if you can, (i consider 3 hours a day for 6 days a week a huge week) then more power to you, but i would be absolutely miserable doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said I *will*, I said I can see the numbers working. It's just like working a 9-5er, except you're doing 9PM to 5AM. You can even move to australia and work during the day [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I've only been able to put 20 hours per week for the past two months, and my last week and a half were 2-tabling (as I've just moved to $100nl), I've only been 4-tabling 100nl for less than a week. I did put in a lot of hours casino whoring though, but I don't have that logged.

There is another side though. When I lived with my parents, I was pretty much set for all the necessities. Sure, I didn't have all the "necessities" a suburban kid "absolutely needs" </sarcasm>, but when I moved out on my own, the first week I was down to my penny jar eating Ramen and I have a housemate who's 28 and still works for $8/hr. The whole experience quickly set me straight and I realized that I could either play poker or go stock shelves for $7.45/hr at the local shoprite.

On top of that, I still have to pay this semester's tuition (my parents aren't helping me AT ALL).

I used to put in 3 hours a week and thought I played too much, now I'll gladly put in 20 hours per week.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Excellent point Voltron. I am playing poker full time, and so far for the whole of last month and this month, I have logged 57 hours. About an hour a day

I don't wanna push myself to play more than I feel like for two reasons:

I don't wanna get burnt out and start playing worse
I am lazy/I like to enjoy life

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am lazy/I like to enjoy life

[/ QUOTE ]
nh, sir!

DCWGaming : any tips for a n00b? Not game-related, anything I can do mentally/physically? I know I should start going to the gym, anything else?

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Voltron , keep in mind that your 50tabling routine is much more tiring than peaceful 4tabling [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Gym is good...40 hours a day at the computer doesnt exactly help your health [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But its really just your own drive... I feel like a bum if i dont have something that I'm going to treat like a real job. Having a schedule and sticking to it really just keeps me grounded mentally. Another plus is that my relatives dont think im a total bum when i say "hey, its not a game, its hard work, im at those tables 40 hours a week, and I study for another 20"

Just write down a schedule. Maybe a checklist or something so you can keep tabs on yourself until you've got it down to a routine.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love it as a part time summer/school job, I think I'd hate it full time.

[/ QUOTE ]

word and variance makes me not even like it as a school job sometimes

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Hey TeamDonkey.. I like your old avatar more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I think its possible to make decent living at 200NL. Suppose you are going to put 30hours/week (I think anything more may be hard to sustain) and play 4tables of 200NL 6max with certainly sustainable winrate of 5PTBB/100 (lets be pessimistic).
You will get approximately 350hand/hour so you will put 40k hands a month. 5PTBB/100 equals to 20$/100 or 8k month which is almost 100k a year.
Now few thing you really need to consider before deciding to go pro at this level :

-it may be difficult to resist temptation of shots at bigger limit which may (or may not) thin your earnings
-winrate assumptions are rather pessimistic hours per week assumption is rather optimistic
-100k/year is great income but we dont know how good games will be in few years so I think if you consider leaving your real job it may not be worth it.
-playing 200NL is very boring once you are winning at this level (at least for me). If you are in steady financial situation and can afford few months of learning I would advice taking a shot at 400 then 600 then 1000 6max. 400+$/hour income is not unheard of at that level, its very tempting (I am actually at 6PTBB/100 at 1kNL for 20k hands and I am playing 6tables so its like 500$/hour (for all the haters I dont claim its sustainable, but 400$/hour certainly is)).

These are my opinions and I dont claim they are 100% correct (to avoid being flamed).

Best wishes

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
love it as a part time summer/school job, I think I'd hate it full time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Dream job for me = college teacher by day, 1k NL player by night.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

Wow, it's funny how many people want to be/are teachers here. I think that given poker has no benefit to society, a teacher is an ideal profession if you want to have a feeling of self worth, and poker is perfect because teachers get paid [censored].

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am lazy/I like to enjoy life

[/ QUOTE ]
nh, sir!

DCWGaming : any tips for a n00b? Not game-related, anything I can do mentally/physically? I know I should start going to the gym, anything else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsolicited advice: get a real job.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am lazy/I like to enjoy life

[/ QUOTE ]
nh, sir!

DCWGaming : any tips for a n00b? Not game-related, anything I can do mentally/physically? I know I should start going to the gym, anything else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsolicited advice: get a real job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or become a lawyer. Ooooo....burn.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am lazy/I like to enjoy life

[/ QUOTE ]
nh, sir!

DCWGaming : any tips for a n00b? Not game-related, anything I can do mentally/physically? I know I should start going to the gym, anything else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsolicited advice: get a real job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you hiring, because like I said, there isn't much I can get around here.

Also, that's the whole plan, I'd be very greatful if this continued for just 2 more years, I will have made enough to put myself through the rest of college.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

What's all this talk about 8pm to 4pm !?

There are more players logged on to PartyPoker at 2pm then there are at 3am. You absolutely do not have to start working in the after-dinner hours. I think one could perfectly justify a 2pm-6pm, 7pm-11pm workday.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

I don't know if you are talking to me or Dwarrior, but

[ QUOTE ]


Unsolicited advice: get a real job.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, what for?

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's all this talk about 8pm to 4pm !?

There are more players logged on to PartyPoker at 2pm then there are at 3am. You absolutely do not have to start working in the after-dinner hours. I think one could perfectly justify a 2pm-6pm, 7pm-11pm workday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to play 2pm-6pm and 9pm-1am.

Euro drunks during the day and Yankee drunks at night [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you cant doesnt mean others can.

I've been playing 8 hours a day 5 days a week for the past 4 months.

Before that I was averaging 90-100 hours a month. I went pro in march.

The hours are easier and easier to put in as the months go on.

If mortals cant play that much poker...maybe me (and quite a few others) are just immortal?

[/ QUOTE ]

well if you actually are doing that, im not sure to congratulate you or what... i cant imagine myself being happy while living a life like that. most of my point was that people take a hourly rate from a month of playing, multiply it by a lot of hours, and decide that is how much they could win in a year. usually this gives them a number that is way off because there is so much variance and it is much harder than it sounds to play 5+ hours a day.

right now i play poker on a very part time basis, 15-20 hours a week tops. i have other stuff to do, and make more than enough to have a ton of money to spend doing that. if youve read any of sklanskys "happiness EV" stuff that basically describes my approach. maybe ive got too much going in other areas to play poker 8 hours a day. probably because i'd kill myself if i did.

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

i dunno how anyone could play ssnl as a full-time job

id stab myself within the first week

Re: anyone making a living from SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno how anyone could play ssnl as a full-time job

id stab myself within the first week

[/ QUOTE ]

I quit my job and started going to graduate school full-time. I have been trying to play enough poker to pay my mortgage, etc . . . I pretty much hate poker [and life] every 3rd week when I hit a 4-5 buy-in downswing.

I used to think the idea of pro poker player would be cool . . . these days I consider just taking the extra $2-3k/month in student loans and playing poker for fun when I feel like it.

But I don't handle variance as well as many I suppose.