I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?

-g

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?


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False.

Why would you think this?

Is it the side effect of an atheistic worldview?

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?


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False.

Why would you think this?

Is it the side effect of an atheistic worldview?

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Firstly, I am not an Atheist, and I make that point so as not to give all these brilliant Atheists a bad name. Secondly, it doesn't appear to be a false statement to me. If I thought that my deity would punish a very humble, kind, compassionate person simply due to a lack of faith, I might decide that deity wasn't worth a seconds worship.

-g

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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False.

Why would you think this?


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Why is this false. I was always under the assumption that the one requirement for going to heaven under the Christian faith is true faith in God. Is this incorrect?

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?

-g

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Those are the rules.


Such a belief promotes belief which they believe is a good thing (both the belief and its promotion).

I realize if the time comes and my guess is wrong, I'm screwed, but I can't honestly claim to believe and I think being honest is important, more so than tricking myself into believing something that I certainly do not.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

This is why I try not to get mad at people that are evangelizing. If a person believes that their friend is going to hell because he doesn't have faith, then he would be a pretty crappy friend if he didn't try to prevent you from spending eternity in hell. While I can understand that the evangelists are trying to save us from hell, I don't understand the Christians that don't seem to care what happens to those around them. To quote Puddy from Seinfeld "It's not a problem for me, you're the one that's going to hell"

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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This is why I try not to get mad at people that are evangelizing. If a person believes that their friend is going to hell because he doesn't have faith, then he would be a pretty crappy friend if he didn't try to prevent you from spending eternity in hell. While I can understand that the evangelists are trying to save us from hell, I don't understand the Christians that don't seem to care what happens to those around them. To quote Puddy from Seinfeld "It's not a problem for me, you're the one that's going to hell"

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Do you believe that the United States should send FBI agents to Madagascar to solve their open murder cases? Should it be illegal to insult someone?

The problem with evangelism is not so much the intent, but the fact that it does not respect individuals' autonomy. I believe that I am not going to hell. In fact, I don't even believe in hell. Evangelist John Doe believes that I am going to hell. Who's right? I don't know; both beliefs are equally valid, and therein lies the problem. Where does John Doe's belief become more important in regard to my life than my own belief? Why should my life be unwillingly subjected to his judgment?

Scott

PS By the way, if you do grant his beliefs power over me, I can logically conclude from your assumptions that I have the right to walk around killing missionaries, so I suggest giving it a fair amount of thought [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

I think what our somewhat zealous OP is saying is that most Christians don't seem exceptionally terrified or emotionally moved that some people whom they love are headed for eternal damnation. I can understand too; I had a girlfriend who was Christian (a believer, but not very strong practicer or student). I was mystified that she would often be very concerned about my health when I was sick or my upcoming midterm that I was stressing about, yet seemingly nonchalant about the idea of me spending eternity in unfathomable anguish.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

What I personally wonder is how Christians accept the concept of heaven/hell as just. How can a finite sin or merit deserve infinite punishment or reward? How is hell at all useful for someone? Why not decide heaven/hell based on someone's compassion, morality, or something more universal and basic than the belief in Christ?

Why not reincarnation, or a plethora of levels of heaven/hell that correspond with the person's level of morality?

Why not total oblivion rather than Hell? (that's one that I'd REALLY like answered)

In essence, why not something that makes more sense?

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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False.

Why would you think this?


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Why is this false. I was always under the assumption that the one requirement for going to heaven under the Christian faith is true faith in God. Is this incorrect?

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It's not what christians believe, as far as I'm aware. Entry into heaven is through Christ. that is why there are all the missionaries .... to save souls that would be inevitably lost by virtue of ignorance of Christ.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?


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False.

Why would you think this?

Is it the side effect of an atheistic worldview?

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Firstly, I am not an Atheist, and I make that point so as not to give all these brilliant Atheists a bad name. Secondly, it doesn't appear to be a false statement to me. If I thought that my deity would punish a very humble, kind, compassionate person simply due to a lack of faith, I might decide that deity wasn't worth a seconds worship.

-g

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Let me be more clear.

Why do you think a christian would be "unperturbed" about a person going to hell?

I think most christians are very perturbed by this fact.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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If I thought that my deity would punish a very humble, kind, compassionate person simply due to a lack of faith, I might decide that deity wasn't worth a seconds worship.

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Foolish, considering the outcome.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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If I thought that my deity would punish a very humble, kind, compassionate person simply due to a lack of faith, I might decide that deity wasn't worth a seconds worship.

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Foolish, considering the outcome.

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If what you were saying was true, then anyone under the thumb of a powerful dictator should bow down and grovel at their feet merely in hopes of gaining their disdainful mercy.
Since we both know you don't actually believe that...what did you really mean??

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?


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False.

Why would you think this?

Is it the side effect of an atheistic worldview?

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Firstly, I am not an Atheist, and I make that point so as not to give all these brilliant Atheists a bad name. Secondly, it doesn't appear to be a false statement to me. If I thought that my deity would punish a very humble, kind, compassionate person simply due to a lack of faith, I might decide that deity wasn't worth a seconds worship.

-g

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Let me be more clear.

Why do you think a christian would be "unperturbed" about a person going to hell?

I think most christians are very perturbed by this fact.

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Yeah and a lot of Germans were "perturbed" by the Nazis. Just not enough to take a stand against it. Now you have a God who is going to punish millions of millions of good people WORSE than what Hitler did to people in the Holocaust. Are you going to bow and submit before that God?
I wouldn't.

-g

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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The problem with evangelism is not so much the intent, but the fact that it does not respect individuals' autonomy. I believe that I am not going to hell. In fact, I don't even believe in hell. Evangelist John Doe believes that I am going to hell. Who's right? I don't know; both beliefs are equally valid, and therein lies the problem. Where does John Doe's belief become more important in regard to my life than my own belief? Why should my life be unwillingly subjected to his judgment?

Scott


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Sorry Scott, I stated things poorly. I shouldn't have said evangelists. What I meant was your family and/or loved ones. I wasn't talking about Reverend John Doe. I just don't get the non-chalant Christian mother telling her son "oh, you're going to hell, but I'm not so Oh Well". I don't believe in hell either, but if I did I would at least show some concern about my family going to the "Pit of burning oil and eternal pain". I'm just saying that I have patience for my mother's preaching, I wasn't talking about Reverend Lovejoy trying to convert the "Heathen" tribesmen.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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How can a finite sin or merit deserve infinite punishment or reward?

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Great question. The finite sin was committed against an infinitly righteous God therefore deserving infinite punishment.

As to the merit side. Our merit is not what warrants infinite reward. It is the infinite merit/righteousness of the son of God that we receive at the moment of our conversion by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that gives us the inheritance of eternal life.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?

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Your premise is faulty. God is just. "Good, ethical, loving people" do not go to hell. In fact no one is good, ethical and loving according to Scripture.

(Rom 3:10) as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
(Rom 3:11) no one understands; no one seeks for God.
(Rom 3:12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

(Rom 3:23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,




Jesus Christ is the only truly good and loving man who ever existed. When we repent of our sin and put our faith in Christ, his righteousness is reckoned to our account. We are counted righteous only then.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

Ah, the cult of Saul of Tarsus.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Why is it that believers (in general) seem completely unperturbed by the notion that many, many millions of good, ethical, loving people will go to hell simply because of a lack of faith in Christ/God?

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Your premise is faulty. God is just. "Good, ethical, loving people" do not go to hell. In fact no one is good, ethical and loving according to Scripture.

(Rom 3:10) as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
(Rom 3:11) no one understands; no one seeks for God.
(Rom 3:12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

(Rom 3:23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,




Jesus Christ is the only truly good and loving man who ever existed. When we repent of our sin and put our faith in Christ, his righteousness is reckoned to our account. We are counted righteous only then.

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I have to say, by that account I guess it makes some sense. We are all total shite in the Lord's eyes, except for Jesus. Figures God favors his only son much like a baseball coach playing favorites with his little league progeny.

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Figures God favors his only son much like a baseball coach playing favorites with his little league progeny.

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Not the best analogy for a couple of reasons. Unlike the son of a baseball coach, the son of God truly merits the favor of his father. Also, those who believe in the son are adopted by the father and share in his inheritance.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Jesus Christ is the only truly good and loving man who ever existed. When we repent of our sin and put our faith in Christ, his righteousness is reckoned to our account. We are counted righteous only then.

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I know many good and loving people, some of them in positions of power. The level of there compassion and influence is of course no where near that of where the the Almighty's is supposed to be. Just the same, the wise, compassionate, understanding leaders that I know would never sentence a man to eternal pain and suffering for simply not being able (notice I'm declining to use any form of the word choice) to believe in ghosts.

I'm aware that the my last word trivializes the faith but I'm attempting to make a point, my apologies to anyone who is offended by it.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Great question. The finite sin was committed against an infinitly righteous God therefore deserving infinite punishment.

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How is this just? By this logic, someone who commits a misdemeanor against a poor man should owe him $10 in settlement, and the same misdmeanor committed against Bill Gates should cost the defendant hundreds of millions.

Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime?

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Jesus Christ is the only truly good and loving man who ever existed. When we repent of our sin and put our faith in Christ, his righteousness is reckoned to our account. We are counted righteous only then.

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I know many good and loving people, some of them in positions of power. The level of there compassion and influence is of course no where near that of where the the Almighty's is supposed to be. Just the same, the wise, compassionate, understanding leaders that I know would never sentence a man to eternal pain and suffering for simply not being able (notice I'm declining to use any form of the word choice) to believe in ghosts.

I'm aware that the my last word trivializes the faith but I'm attempting to make a point, my apologies to anyone who is offended by it.

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Well the point of believers, apparently, is that none of these people that you or I consider "good" are actually good. They all fall short of the true goodness embodied by Christ. The fact that he had perfect genetics isn't his fault or ours but we'd better accept him into our hearts in order to gain salvation for our "sins."
The fact that none of us have ever MET this perfect human is beside the point. Just accept that we suck and need this person's (whom we've never met)forgiveness.
I guess I better prepare myself for eternal damnation (sweat forming on brow).
Needless to say, I'm not too worried about it. I'm more worried about the prospect of eternal nothingness but whatever.

-g

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Now you have a God who is going to punish millions of millions of good people WORSE than what Hitler did to people in the Holocaust. Are you going to bow and submit before that God?


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Wow.

You've really been mislead about God's nature, desires, and wishes for us.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Now you have a God who is going to punish millions of millions of good people WORSE than what Hitler did to people in the Holocaust. Are you going to bow and submit before that God?


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Wow.

You've really been mislead about God's nature, desires, and wishes for us.

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Please explain where I have been misinformed.
1. If you don't accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell.
2. Even if you are a "good" person, that is do good works, are loving, do the same things as a good Christian--EXCEPT you don't believe in Jesus-- you will still go to hell.
3. Hell is eternal damnation and torture. This clearly is worse than what Hitler could do to anyone.
4. This means that people whom I would consider to be "good" are being tortured eternally in ways that are worse than I can imagine.
5. The god I am being told of in these scenarios is worse than Hitler.

-g

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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Please explain where I have been misinformed.


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From here down.

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3. Hell is eternal damnation and torture.

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Hell is being separated from God for eternity. By our own choice by the way. If someone chooses not to believe in Him, how is He torturing them?


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4. This means that people whom I would consider to be "good" are being tortured eternally in ways that are worse than I can imagine.

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I used to feel the same way. That doesn't mean it's correct, what I've found is most people have a false view of God, The Bible, and His judgement. All it takes is some time studying scripture, and all this is easily cleared up.

Are you up for that?? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

How do you know your view is correct? I've studied the Bible a great deal in my life, and what you say makes no sense at all to me.

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

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How do you know your view is correct?

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How do you know your view is correct?

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I've studied the Bible a great deal in my life, and what you say makes no sense at all to me.

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I didn't know The Bible was that difficult to understand especially if "you've studied it a great deal".

Which part makes no sense?

Unless you're talking about the Klingon bible that thing is like whoa! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

Here's one. Why do so many of Paul's writings directly contradict Jesus? My feeling is most protestants today follow the writings of Saul of Tarsus as opposed to the words of Jesus of Nazareth.

IMO, Paul was a revisionist who changed Jesus' meaning to suit his own world view.

Edit: see this

Re: I don\'t Have a Problem with a Good Person Going to Hell
 

You stated

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I've studied the Bible a great deal in my life, and what you say makes no sense at all to me.



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I asked

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Which part makes no sense?


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Meaning my statements- not what the Bible says.

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Edit: see this

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If this is what you mean by studying the Bible a great deal then I understand why your confused. Try reading 2 verses before, and after each passage, and that should help the context a bit.