article on canadian casinos
 

http://www.mises.org/story/1961

John

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

To quote Keats

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty..."

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

I don't like socialism myself, but truth be told, the Fallsview casino is rather nice. It's kind of unfair to compare anything to Las Vegas. And winners don't pay taxes on their winnings in Canadian casinos which more than makes up for the negatives. What does the capitalist have to say about that?

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

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And winners don't pay taxes on their winnings in Canadian casinos which more than makes up for the negatives. What does the capitalist have to say about that?

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The capitalist isn't the one imposing the taxes.

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I agree. There should be no taxes on gambling winnings and the casino's should be free enterprises.

But the article is bashing Canadian Casinos without giving all the facts. It is much better to play in a Canadian Casino monetarily speaking.

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I honestly know nothing of the quality of these casinos. Comparing it to those in Vegas may not be fair. Vegas may have some sort of gambling economies of scale or some other advantage. I was just passing along the article as one that might be appreciated on this forum.

John

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

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I agree. There should be no taxes on gambling winnings and the casino's should be free enterprises.

But the article is bashing Canadian Casinos without giving all the facts. It is much better to play in a Canadian Casino monetarily speaking.

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I don't think that's clear at all. If you're a losing player, the taxes don't matter. In that case, the comps and other promotions in the US casinos are clearly superior, along with the "psychic benefits" of superior aesthetics. Additionally, there may be other advantages in game selection (competitive US casinos might offer better BJ rules, or more odds in craps, or higher limits).

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"If you're a losing player, the taxes don't matter."

Neither do comps, because you end up paying for them from your losses. Any professional player who is +EV will do much better monetarily in a Canadian Casino than in An American Casino because of the tax issue.

A loser will probably enjoy one of the Vegas Casinos on the Strip (and definitely most American casinos are not like those) but who cares? A gambler comes to gamble. The tourists go for the other stuff. I want to play against -EV gamblers.

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

I want to play against -EV gamblers.

Then in your case the gating factor would be game selection, so the US casinos are better for you - Vegas and CA best of all.

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"If you're a losing player, the taxes don't matter."

Neither do comps, because you end up paying for them from your losses.

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That's obviously wrong, because the comps partially offset your losses.

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Any professional player who is +EV will do much better monetarily in a Canadian Casino than in An American Casino because of the tax issue.

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I don't think this is a given. As I said before, even if you are +EV, there *may* be advantages in competitive casinos that outwiegh the tax-free winnings.

Some of them may be avoidable for canadian players, however. For example, canada doesn't tax gambling winnings but it taxes everything else and sticks you with crappy medical care. If you live in the US and play in canada you can avoid those downsides. Of course, you'd be living in Detroit most likely, which has it's own set of negatives.

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A loser will probably enjoy one of the Vegas Casinos on the Strip (and definitely most American casinos are not like those) but who cares?

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Well, all of those people care, that's who. That was the main point of the article.

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A gambler comes to gamble. The tourists go for the other stuff. I want to play against -EV gamblers.

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Aren't tourists -EV gamblers? I was assuming that you were talking about table games before you got to this point. For poker, I seriously doubt that canadian tax-free winnings can come anywhere close to making up for the huge game selection and fish factor advantage that vegas holds.

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All the Canadian casinos I have seen are full, so bringing people in is not a problem. The problem is we don't have enough casinos!

And the tourists have hurt certain games. It is extremely difficult to find a decent BlackJack game in Vegas because there are so many dumb tourists who play the Single Deck 6:5 or other crappy games. The casinos show a better profit offering only these.

As for poker, it is pretty well known that the hardest games are in Vegas, as that is where most of the professionals head to. The typical tourist will take shots playing poker, but usually at the lower stakes. The guys who keep the casinos rich are the high rolling gamblers who are not good at the games, but love to throw money at them and are there for long periods of time. Those are the guys you want to play poker against.

Also, the casinos make more money off their entertainment these days than gambling revenue. They don't have it in their best interest to offer super deals in regards to the gamblers anymore.

So the unabashed monopolizing has been and will end up hurting professional gamblers more and more in Vegas. That's why so many of us play on the internet now.

I will take my free crappy health care and tax free winnings in Canada either in our casinos or on the internet because making money is my priority. Vegas is a gamblers Mecca. We all have to visit, but we don't have to live there.

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The poker players who show up to our Casinos are crappy too. The usual mix of degenerates, incompetent and competent. Or do you claim that Canadians are superior at your pastime? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Game selection is always important, but cuts into playing time. In Canada, every player starts with a 30% advantage not having to pay income tax. That is a huge difference to make up. I don't see how playing in Vegas or CA can make up for it monetarily speaking.

The nice news for Canadians is that they can go down to Vegas and play and also not pay income tax on their American winnings!

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Game selection is always important, but cuts into playing time. In Canada, every player starts with a 30% advantage not having to pay income tax. That is a huge difference to make up. I don't see how playing in Vegas or CA can make up for it monetarily speaking.

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Then why do the pros go to vegas? Do you think they make money by playing against other pros?

The proof is in the pudding - how much money do people spend in vegas vs. canadian casinos? It's pretty clear which one people find more value in.

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The proof is in the math.

According to Price Waterhouse Coopers, Gambling across the United States generated a revenue of 47.3 Billion Dollars in 2004. The current population of the US is about 295,700,000 people.

In Canada, gambling generated a revenue of 13 Billion Dollars in 2004. The current population is about 32,800,000.

So Americans generate about $160 of gambling revenue per person, while Canadians generate $396 dollars per person. A whopping 2.5 times more. Per capita, our casinos generate way more revenue.

Naturally pros go to Vegas because that's where the Mecca of information and competition is. But from a financial planning perspective, Canada is the place to be to get the most bang for your buck.

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

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The proof is in the math.

According to Price Waterhouse Coopers, Gambling across the United States generated a revenue of 47.3 Billion Dollars in 2004. The current population of the US is about 295,700,000 people.

In Canada, gambling generated a revenue of 13 Billion Dollars in 2004. The current population is about 32,800,000.

So Americans generate about $160 of gambling revenue per person, while Canadians generate $396 dollars per person. A whopping 2.5 times more. Per capita, our casinos generate way more revenue.

Naturally pros go to Vegas because that's where the Mecca of information and competition is. But from a financial planning perspective, Canada is the place to be to get the most bang for your buck.

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Whatever. Keep thinking that. Your positioning of the data assumes that Canadians only go to Canadian casinos and Canadian casinos only have canadians as clients (and similarly for US casinos).

If there was more money to be made in canadian casinos, I'm pretty sure the pros would be there.

Enjoy your (not) free healthcare.

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Also, note that by your reasoning, the Indian tribe with twelve members and a bingo hall on their reservation would probably have the "best" casino in the universe. Per capita.

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Taxes are clearly not the main concern of US Poker players. Outside of tournament wins where a W2G is issued, I'd say a very large percentage (80% or more would not surprise me) of money won in cash games goes unreported, as most casual gamblers don't bother. Pro's clearly want to play against "gamblers" and the free drinks, exploding volcanoes and topless shows draw 'em in. I played at Casino Windsor over 10 years ago, and I was dumbstruck at how staid the place was compared to NV casinos (casinos elsewhere in the US being somewhat rare at the time). Yet it was packed, no doubt with Detroit area residents. I haven't been back to Detroit since but can't imagine people driving across to Canada to play with MGM in their backyard (and not having to deal with currency exhange).

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

Luckily Canadians have developed two WMD's to counter all annoyances of cross border travel: you can touch our fully nude strippers and drink at 19 (18 in Quebec). [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

You obviously don't like to be proved wrong:

A professional gambler in Canada does not pay income taxes, hence his health care is free.

I am comparing the revenue of two nations, not the anomaly of a couple Indian tribes. You guys have 10 times more the population and opportunity due to less restrictive legislation, but can't even tie us in revenue per person. And it is to your advantage that Canadians and people around the world travel down to your famous casinos. Why can't you beat us in revenue per person? Our population is not 12 Indians.

Canadian Casinos also offer comps. You have to pay for alcohol (which one can consume at 19) but other drinks are free and American style comps are given. And our gamblers tend to be of equal crap compared to other places.

Taking all this into consideration you fail to mention how a professional gambler who earns his living playing in casinos can easily make up his 30% deficit in the US compared to Canada. If two poker players have equal talent, how can the one in America possibly make more money than the one playing in Canada if they play the same limit game?

Maybe you can find a third person arbitrator that we can both agree on to settle this question. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

My point was simply that 7 active tables and no alternative place to play nearby is not optimal game selection.

Also, it's my understanding that in Canada, gambling winnings are taxable if its your sole source of income. But I may be misinformed.

And, finally, if you're playing live in the US, there's no paper trail on your casino winnings, so while technically they're taxable, the reality is not all people with other jobs actually report all their casino winnings anyway.

Sort of like any cash business. Lack of paper trails means not everything gets reported.

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If two poker players have equal talent, how can the one in America possibly make more money than the one playing in Canada if they play the same limit game?

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How many 4000/8000 games are there in Canada? How many 10k tourneys each year?

When people want to go on a gambling vacation, what do they think of first, Las Vegas or Canada?

Pros prefer vegas.
Tourists prefer vegas.

Thread over.

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

"How many 4000/8000 games are there in Canada? How many 10k tourneys each year?"

Holy Cow! How many professional poker players make their living playing 4000/8000? Not even Sklansky, and he casually admits to being one of the top 5 players in the world! Although maybe things have changed since I was in Vegas and there are dozens of tables being offered now at this limit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

If, according to your reasoning, the highest limits determine the gambling location of choice, then it would be Dubai in the UAE or some places in Asia and the Orient with their whales. This is where hands of a million dollars are played.

As for 10K Tournaments, the WORLD Poker Tour has the highest buy ins, and they play...all over the WORLD. There are plenty of smaller tournaments in Canada. It is Vegas which hosts the WSOP, but maybe one day in the future they will change the venue to go on a world tour. The Olympics aren't only held in Greece anymore you know.

I love the irony of a nearly socialist country like Canada being the most financially beneficial country to gamble in for the average professional. It must give Anarcho Capitalists nervous breakdowns. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

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If, according to your reasoning, the highest limits determine the gambling location of choice,

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That's not my reasoning.

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As for 10K Tournaments, the WORLD Poker Tour has the highest buy ins, and they play...all over the WORLD. There are plenty of smaller tournaments in Canada.

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But how many, as compared to the US (or even just Vegas)?

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It is Vegas which hosts the WSOP, but maybe one day in the future they will change the venue to go on a world tour. The Olympics aren't only held in Greece anymore you know.

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Maybe one day canada will be better. But it's not now, and that's what we're talking about.

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I love the irony of a nearly socialist country like Canada being the most financially beneficial country to gamble in for the average professional. It must give Anarcho Capitalists nervous breakdowns. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Yes, I haven't slept in three days. If Canada is so much better, why did Negreanu leave there and go to Canada? Why doesn't Sklansky move there? How many people decide to become full-time gamblers and move to Canada vs. Vegas?

Living tax-free isn't so great if you're capping your income. The best players go where they can make the most money. Obviously some players will have other reasons to stay somewhere that might limit their income, but in general, the bulk of the players are going where they can maximize their income, and that's vegas.

This isn't a USA vs. Canada discussion. It isn't a socialist vs. capitalist discussion, either - the US is not *that* much less socialist than Canada. You seem to be taking your personal preference and assuming that every rational person would have the same preference, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

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I love the irony of a nearly socialist country like Canada being the most financially beneficial country to gamble in for the average professional.

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pvn already said this but this really begs the question... Why are there so many more professional gamblers in Vegas than in Canada? Are you assuming that these people are not rational? Negreanu moved from Canada to Vegas (before he played nose-bleed stakes) to pursue his career in gambling. When doing a cost-benefit analysis, the vast majority of professional gamblers have deemed it more profitable to live in Vegas, regardless of the taxes.

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Negreneau never renounced his Canadian citizenship. In fact he has a special poker visa. As a result, like other Canadians going to Vegas he is eligible to claim tax refunds that Americans can't.

Also, when he went, poker was not as widespread as it is now in Canada. Anybody in the late 90's definitely would have an advantage going to Vegas if they wanted to be recognized as the best in the world, which is what Negreneau wanted.

Of course, Canada is also cold! I love the dry desert climate of the American Southwest and want to move there myself as long as I can keep my Canadian tax advantages.

"When doing a cost-benefit analysis..." Strictly speaking, the average poker professional would do better in Canada from this perspective, so once the information is presented to them in an honest manner (which was not done in the original article) I am sure they will reconsider.

But people have all sorts of reasons for doing what they do. Getting the most money possible is not necessarily the top priority.

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You obviously don't like to be proved wrong:

A professional gambler in Canada does not pay income taxes, hence his health care is free.
[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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That is incorrect. A professional gambler in Canada does have to pay taxes on his winnings. There are only a few cases when we don't (ie, jackpot winnings or the lottery).

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That is not correct. The subject was thoroughly discussed in the magazine forum under one of the "taxes" headings. Fulltime online gambling revenue is subject to debate as the CCRA has given contradictory rulings. Everything else is definitely tax free though.

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

http://www.recgroups.com/a/1/527770/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

On the second one go to page 2

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I like the fact that having a beer in the hand and not winning on a consistent daily basis can make one exempt. Only in Canada. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The CFE post was excellent and true by the letter of the law. Yet the CRA still rules exemptions in the cases brought up to them. I think the fact that the government runs the casinos at a profit has been looked upon as the key criteria in making one exempt.

To play it safe, one should invest their winnings and claim to be a professional investor as we technically live off of our interest. Any full time professional should be investing his winnings anyway.

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

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Negreneau never renounced his Canadian citizenship. In fact he has a special poker visa. As a result, like other Canadians going to Vegas he is eligible to claim tax refunds that Americans can't.

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This isn't helping your position that Canadian casinos are better than Vegas casinos.

Basically, you're claiming that living in Canada and cheating on your taxes and stealing "free" healthcare from your countrymen is better than living in the US and paying for your own healthcare. That's not a very fair comparison since you're using theft as a condition of the comparison in one case but not the other.

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"Basically, you're claiming that living in Canada and cheating on your taxes and stealing "free" healthcare from your countrymen is better than living in the US and paying for your own healthcare. That's not a very fair comparison since you're using theft"

I advocate nothing illegal. I am saying one can easily manipulate the Canadian tax system to avoid paying taxes on gambling winnings in the US and Canada for Canadians. And we get free health care as well. That's not theft, that's + EV. Do you consider the money you take away from poker players who play worse than yourself (you know, all us guys not good enough to get into your 4000/8000 game) theft?

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I advocate nothing illegal.

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First of all, I'm talking about theft, not necessarily something illegal. Lots of criminal activity is condoned by governments.

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I am saying one can easily manipulate the Canadian tax system to avoid paying taxes on gambling winnings in the US and Canada for Canadians.

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Is this legal? Maybe not paying taxes is legal in Canada, I'm not really up to speed on Canadian tax laws, but somehow I find this hard to believe.

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And we get free health care as well. That's not theft, that's + EV.

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It's not free, it's paid for by taxes. Forcing your countrymen to pay for your healthcare, whether you contribute taxes yourself or not, is theft. Of course, I could be wrong and every taxpayer in Canada is happy to voluntarily pay for you to get "free" healthcare, but again, I kinda doubt it.

Theft is +EV for the thief, but it's still theft and it's still criminal.

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Do you consider the money you take away from poker players who play worse than yourself (you know, all us guys not good enough to get into your 4000/8000 game) theft?

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I don't force anyone to play poker.

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"I don't force anyone to play poker."

And I don't force anybody to take another job. Consequences of that are paying full income tax. It is their choice, not mine. I have found a job which allows me to not pay taxes, and I encourage others to take it too. But if they don't want to they don't have to.

So my health care is not theft. It is part of the contract that citizens of my country agree too.

Re: article on canadian casinos
 

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And I don't force anybody to take another job. Consequences of that are paying full income tax. It is their choice, not mine. I have found a job which allows me to not pay taxes, and I encourage others to take it too. But if they don't want to they don't have to.

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You're dodging the first question and ignoring the second question. Are you illegally avoiding your taxes or not? Regardless of your tax situation, whether you pay them or not, and whether you're supposed to or not, taxation of others is theft. Saying that they only have to pay taxes if they "choose" to engage in taxable professions is a violation of their freedom and property rights.

Is it OK with you if I say I'm going to shoot you in the head unless you go plow my field? Hey, you've got a choice not to get shot in the head. It's your choice, right?

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So my health care is not theft. It is part of the contract that citizens of my country agree too.

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Really? Can I see a copy of it? Who signed it?

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So my health care is not theft. It is part of the contract that citizens of my country agree too.

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Wow. I didnt know I "agreed" to pay taxes. I'd like to disagree now.

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So my health care is not theft. It is part of the contract that citizens of my country agree too.

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Wow. I didnt know I "agreed" to pay taxes. I'd like to disagree now.

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Me too. I don't remember signing anything.

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Oh and Peter666. I don't dicourage anyone from not paying taxes. I think anyone who disagrees with the way the money is being spent should.

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Oh and Peter666. I don't dicourage anyone from not paying taxes. I think anyone who disagrees with the way the money is being spent should.

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A valid point. Of course, I'm mostly concerned with Peter666's claims that he's not advocating anything "illegal" and his use of the taxation issue to change the subject away from the comparison of Canadian casinos to Vegas casinos.

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"You're dodging the first question and ignoring the second question. Are you illegally avoiding your taxes or not?

What are you talking about? I already told you before I "advocate nothing illegal" Everything I do is condoned by the Canada Revenue Agency.


"It is part of the contract that citizens of my country agree too."
"Really? Can I see a copy of it? Who signed it?"

Yeah, its called the Canadian Income Tax Act as put into law by our elected representatives. Look it up on the internet or a local library near you.

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Tell it to your elected representative. And I hope to God you guys won't vote for the Liberals in the upcoming election.