Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

Hello people of two plus two...

Way back when I started playing poker (all of ooh 3 months ago now) I set myself a target of being a reasonable poker player inside of a year - I'm not planning to quit the day job and go pro - but I want to be good enough and bankrolled enough to comfortably play NL$1000 tables or higher so I can make myself a nice little 2nd income.

So far I have gone from clueless newbie little fish - to a slightly smarter fish that is beginning to realise just how big and dangerous the sea is...

It is slowly dawning on me just how complicated poker actually is - especially playing No Limit. If I could go back I start over learning Limit poker - but I am way to stubborn to give up now....

The point of this post is to ask what the average person ought to do to improve their game... and more specifically what I should be doing to improve my game...

so far I have read lots of poker books
HOH 1&2
TOP
SSHE (this was a bad idea - NOW I Know this is for LIMIT HE and NL is much more different than I thought it was DOH!)
and GSIH.

I keep track of my results with PT and try to spend at least an hour a day going through the plays I have made and trying to work out which are good and which are not

I spend at least an hour a day reading 2+2 forums both the current ones and looking through ye olde archives and occasionally post hands for feedback (and most excellent feedback it is too)

I play full ring tables 1 table at a time - I find that this gives me more than enough to keep track of - I watch every hand thats played - I take notes on players all the time...

I don't have a starting hand chart - I used to but I can pretty much remember it all now anyway and I am learning that especially in NL every hand depends on circumstances to a greater or lesser degree so a rigid formula for starting with is actually more of a hinderance.

I don't have an outs chart either - tho there are several in the books I have if I really need to read one - and I'm lucky in that I'm good at mental arithmatic and can work out ballpark figures at the table in no time anyway...

so far so good??

Am I going about learning this fabulous game correctly?

am I making glaringly obvious newbie mistakes?

What else would you advise that I do to accelerate the learning process?

and is my goal of being a reasonably good player within a year actually attainable - or will it take much longer?

Thanks in advance for all the help ..

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

Sounds vaguely like what I've been doing the last 8-10 months.

One possible DO: Work up a spreadsheet for starting hands by position. If you add in probabilities of each starting hand, you can monkey with your starting set and see what your VP$IP should be. Handy if you're thinking of modifying style a little.

One DON'T: If your first move up in levels doesn't go well, don't spend the next two months on tilt, playing every game, every level and every style you can find as an "experiment" until you drop half your roll. Not recommended.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

the games are constantly changing in player composition and dominant styles

i would say the greatest benefit comes from being flexible and adaptive, and that only comes with experience and taking conscious effort to step outside of your comfortable (working) game

more hands, more tables, less thought, fix problems as they emerge

1 yr is almost certainly not realistic

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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What else would you advise that I do to accelerate the learning process?


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u can find a coach.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

Play as many tables as you can while still focusing on what you're doing, that's probably 2 or 3, it will grow to 4 in time. You need to get thousands of hands under your belt, best way to do that is multitable.

I'm at NL100 after 5 months, I expect to be at NL400 after a year.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

I've only played for about 1.5 years and now I'd like to think of myself as a decent $100NL 4-table player.

Some things that helped me are:

- Read every poker book in the book store (ignore Ken Warren)
- As sawseech said, try to get poker to automatic. I think when Brunson said to listen to your "gut", he meant play enough hands to know which is the right play.
- The PT hand review is great, I'm doing that as well
- Get Poker Ace HUD, very helpful
- Datamine your stakes
- No offense to other poker forums, but I ignore them. From what I've seen, only 2+2 has the right mindset, other forums don't get the essense of poker.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

i think u have the right idea so far. a few books that i feel are a must for NL are supersystem, HFAP, and the rueben & ciaffone(not sure how to spell that)books.

i would spend atleast as much time studying as playing if i were u. 2+2 is a great tool, but u have to use it to be beneficial.

im not sure what level u play at, but i would make sure i am practicing good br management, this is what holds a lot of players back. start looking into rb and bonuses to boost your roll, if moving up is what u want.

as for moving up to 5-10 in 12 months, it is unlikely. i personally would pay more attention to improving my game, so that i can be as good as i can be. i would work on adding tables and hand reading skills. good luck man...

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

It sounds like you are on the right track to me. Your post basically describes my last year. The only difference being that I play 4-6 tables at all times, unless HU in a tourney or something. I think it would be worth your while to try and play at least a few more, say 3, in order to get your experience level up.

You will lose the ability to take detailed notes on every player and analysis every hand they play etc., but I think your overall game will improve by seeing a crapload more hands. Also, eventually you will realize that you can learn to focus on the players just as much as you are right now, while playing, 3 or 4 times as many hands.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

BlackRain - I've just switched to $100NL from $50NL last week and datamined a lot (a few days), I noticed a lot of regulars who have played a couple thousand hands this week. I've been thinking of going over their known hands and jotting some notes on their play from Poker Tracker.

I know it's not much of an advice for $25NL and $50NL, where the player turnover is ridiculous, but it seems that $100NL is where the regulars begin. While multi-tabling, I generally can't take detailed notes, but I think reviewing PT hands may be my answer.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

I'm on 100NL now and I'm on my 8th month, i consider myself a decent-good play. Players like Xorbie have learned much faster. 6 max will greatly expedite your learning process, but you definitely need a roll to be doing it, especially if you are learning. Flop play and beyond isn't common enough in full ring I feel, switching to 6max has really forced me to adress playing on all streets since you're involved in so many more hands. Read Pot & No Limit Holdem as well.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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While multi-tabling, I generally can't take detailed notes, but I think reviewing PT hands may be my answer.

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I use a lot of shorthand, and abbreviations. There are a few great threads on 2+2 about this. You may want to search "player notes" or something like that on this forum.
I havent played 50NL or lower in a long time, but there certainly are a good number of regulars at 100NL and 200NL which makes it easier. They generally play solid ABC style poker and I just note that along with any minor pecularities i notice.

The maniac or fish regulars I will write more detailed notes on like "PF RR KJo UTG+2 1/2 NL" With all players, I especially note their handling of big pairs. I stop everything and write down when I see a player limping with QQ or AK for instance as well as when I see a player get stacked because he couldn't let go of AA. I manage to do this while playing 5 tables fairly easily, sometimes holding up the action a touch. Again, having a legend of abbreviations in your head or even written down helps.

Generally you can just type "Sup Bro?" at the table and the 2+2'ers you want to avoid will identify themselves anyways lol.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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Generally you can just type "Sup Bro?" at the table and the 2+2'ers you want to avoid will identify themselves anyways lol.

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I don't get it.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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Generally you can just type "Sup Bro?" at the table and the 2+2'ers you want to avoid will identify themselves anyways lol.

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I don't get it.

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There is a huge following of the gimmick account "sup bro?"
on 2+2.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post1351699

Its become somewhat "code" for "you post on 2+2?" on poker tables on the internet.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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Generally you can just type "Sup Bro?" at the table and the 2+2'ers you want to avoid will identify themselves anyways lol.

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I don't get it.

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ok, im not sure if youre joking or not, but that is the "secret phrase" to see if there are any 2+2ers at the table.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

I have done what you want to do in 10 months, and allthough not completely rolled for 1k, i do play it.
My biggest advice is not to read read read. But rather play play play, post, and then play somemore

I have not read TOP, and really have only browsed Rueben and Ciaffone's book...this board will help you out much more so than any book, espically if you take an active role in it.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

- Read every poker book in the book store (ignore Ken Warren)
- As sawseech said, try to get poker to automatic. I think when Brunson said to listen to your "gut", he meant play enough hands to know which is the right play.
- The PT hand review is great, I'm doing that as well
- Get Poker Ace HUD, very helpful
- Datamine your stakes
- No offense to other poker forums, but I ignore them. From what I've seen, only 2+2 has the right mindset, other forums don't get the essense of poker.

I'd agree with these apart from the last 2 - datamining your stakes may improve your win-rate, it won't improve your reading ability (the exceptions may be if you datamine for 15 mins before sitting down or if you mine so you can practice making notes on players using PT).

Whilst 2+2 is great and has a huge number of fantastic threads, there are other net resources and forums that are pretty useful too and have a lower noise:signal ratio...

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

Hmm going to the 1k tables in a year is quite a goal. I would suggest setting smaller goals that can be met in the short term. As it is you are setting yourself up for failure.
Yes you can become a good player in less than a year. The moderator of this forum has been playing Less Than a year. However, he is not playing 1k buy in tables as far as I know. Not that it cant be done.... people do do it. But I would suggest setting a new goal every 3 months and seeing where you are at every 3 months instead of having a monster yearly goal that the majority of players are not gonna be able to meet.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

thanks for the encouragement and advice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

my original goal to hit 1000NL inside a year I think is still possible - but I set this three months ago when I was still young and naive - we shall see - I shall keep going and see how far I get and how long it takes - I'd happily put in 2-3 years of work if I knew I was going to make it there in the end.

Re: identifying 2+2ers at your table - I have spotted a few at $50NL - and there are a good few regulars I have noted - most seem pretty solid players. I like the challenge of playing against better players - if I continually play weaker players it makes it much harder for me to improve.

Re: HUD - I use this most of the time already - occasionally I turn it off try and work out whos playing loose/tight etc and then turn it on and see how close I got. I don't wanna always play on t'internet and being able to tell a LAG from a TAG or a sLAG from a Rock without handily superimposed numbers is a useful skill I need to develop - hence sometimes playing "naked".

I am inspired by people like Ed Miller who learnt from scratch in around a year flat. It can be done - and I not going to fail through lack of trying...

Anyway enough typing for now - off to hit the tables .

Thanks again.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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I have done what you want to do in 10 months, and allthough not completely rolled for 1k, i do play it.
My biggest advice is not to read read read. But rather play play play, post, and then play somemore

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This is probably the best advice. I've moved from 25nl to playing 200 and 400nl in 5 months. Playing is the best way to learn. Taking an active role in the forums is a really good idea. When it comes down to it, I think the way I learned the most is by losing money. Nothing stings like getting stacked, but that'll teach you not to do it again. Also bonuswhore, a lot. This'll inflate your bankroll and if you're a losing player, (which at many point you probably will be at different levels,) it'll help you keep your head above water.

crosse, how fast did you move between levels? and how many hands do you get in? I think playing the hands is my biggest problem. Also, read TOP.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

over the summer, i played enough to move up about a limit a month, and i don't follow the buyin rule, i'm more of a 10-buying and take a shot, or play an extra table of the next limit and one or two less of my current level. For example, when i started to move up to 400nl i had about 4000 bucks, not 8 because that just seemed silly and self-restricting to me. I've followed a 10 buyin rule ever since deposited 50 bucks and played the stars 5$ tables. I dunno if that answered much of anything-if you want/need specific details PM me. TOP is by my toilet..waiting to get read in little bits.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds_chart.php Here's the best out's odd chart i have found, there's also some other good odd's related charts on this site gl

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

I hate to be a dream killer(I'm a dreamer too) but moving up that fast would be very difficult. To be properly rolled for the 1k game you would need at least 30k(30 buyins). Maybe 50k would be better. When you play against better players your variance goes up and winrate goes down. It isn't easy to go from never playing to being good enough to make 50k in one year(just for the br), although it has been done.

FWIW, I think limit may be a tad easier to move up in. It has more variance, but it isn't as tough on newbies.

I pretty much set my goal at around the 100-200NL level, with small forays into bigger games. Many people are supporters of "shooting for the stars, and falling on a mountain" but I like to keep realistic goals. Nevertheless, good luck in your quest. Really, if you got an insane run of cards you could make it there. Even better, if you got an insane run of cards at a live tourney and won a million dollar prize pool, noone could stop you from playing that high lol.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

xorbie live eats and breathes poker though. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Good luck on your goal. If you are young, have little to no bills, no girlfriend, kids, friends or life, it's very reasonable that you could make the 1k tables in a year. I have a girlfriend, child, friends, bills and a life and I've been playing NL Holdem(other forms of poker longer though) a little over a year now and I still play 200nl-25nl. So it's possible, but I'm a genius and I'm a serious student in my off time, and I still wouldn't sit at a 1k table. Just kidding about the genius part... sort of.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

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for the 1k game you would need at least 30k(30 buyins). Maybe 50k would be better.


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The stars 5/10 NL game is so nitty that I would think you need less in terms of buy-ins than the 2/4NL at stars.


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FWIW, I think limit may be a tad easier to move up in. It has more variance, but it isn't as tough on newbies.


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This may be true but if the goal is $$$/hr, the original poster is better off in my opinion playing NL.

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I pretty much set my goal at around the 100-200NL level
...
I like to keep realistic goals.


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There is no reason that you or anyone else for that matter couldn't do better than this.

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my experience: I deposited 50$ online about a year ago after playing 2, 3, and 5 dollar min-buy games with my friends at home. I am currently playing NL 400 and some NL1000. I have to say that I must have run incredibly hot for an extended period of time in this because although I was a reasonable player at first, I probably made more than I should have. Similarly, I recently ran incredibly well and won 4 buy ins in one session against a huge donator at a game 3x my normal level.

Ultimately I think luck will determine whether or not you can get to NL1000 in one year. I'd say its nearly impossible that anybody could do this without prior poker experience etc.

Lastly, advice: books are incredibly overrated and these forums are a little overrated too. They definitely help, but reading theory of poker 10 times is not nearly as valuable as reading it two times and spending 3/4 the rest of the time at the table and 1/4 the rest analyzing your own play.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

Thanks for the corrections on the game atmosphere. I guess I was basing it off of limit games and figured it might be the same, but of course I've never played that high in either form of the game.

For clarification though, I've only been playing No Limit about a month, and set the 1-200 game as a goal in 3-6 months.

Re: Evolution - from Fish to Formidable inside a year.... (?)
 

I am friends with a player on Stars who I played regularly with at .10/.25 NL around March/April of this year. He is a very successful 10/20 NL player now. He is an exceptional player, right from the start. He logged an insane amount of playing time. So it is possible...but not for many.