Evidence that God exists
 

I know a lot of Christians on this forum believe that there is direct evidence of a God. I would like to hear some of this evidence. And none of the following is evidence:

1. Lots of people believe in God (lots of people believed the world was flat)

2. Miracles by a prophet (you can't claim a miracle as evidence of God if you didn't witness the miracle)

3. The existence of the universe (just because matter exists doesn't mean that God exists)

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

http://biblia.com/apparitions/myrna-stigmata-15.jpg

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

Obviously that is my idea of a bad joke, like my stupid screen name that I now have to change.

Isn't religion all about belief rather than evidence?

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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(lots of people believed the world was flat)


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Who?

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(just because matter exists doesn't mean that God exists)


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Yes, it does.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Isn't religion all about belief rather than evidence?


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Thats what I believe but DS thinks I'm nuts so there's evidence that some people think religon is about evidence.

chez

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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I know a lot of Christians on this forum believe that there is direct evidence of a God.

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Ok

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I would like to hear some of this evidence.

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Ok

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And none of the following is evidence:


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Oh. Why don't you just say what your looking for. Something like a Bible the size of Texas falling out of the sky, that way when it doesn't happen you can "logically" infer that there's no God.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

<font color="blue">Oh. Why don't you just say what your looking for. Something like a Bible the size of Texas falling out of the sky, that way when it doesn't happen you can "logically" infer that there's no God. </font>

How about just anything observable and not based on heresay.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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(lots of people believed the world was flat)


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Who?

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(just because matter exists doesn't mean that God exists)


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Yes, it does.

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Who believed the world was flat? Most of Europe before Columbus and all those folk. Lots of people believe in Santa Claus and that Tupac is still alive, etc. That doesn't make it true.

And how does the existence of matter prove there is a God exactly? There is a universe -&gt; There is a God? I don't think follows necessarily. And it's especially not true that the existence of matter proves there is a Christian God.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Isn't religion all about belief rather than evidence?

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I thought so too, but I've read a lot of posts on this forum saying things to the contrary.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

The reason I included the whole "none of the following is evidence" part is because all the things I listed don't prove anything. I was just trying to list off a few things in my initial post so that I wouldn't have to deal with each of them later. You can see why they aren't evidence of a God, right?

I think that I believe in God at the moment, but I don't think that there is any way that his existence can be proved.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

I used to find it amazing that somebody can base his belief on something someone told him, and then have the audacity to call into question the validity of searching for evidence; now I'm used to it.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Most of Europe before Columbus and all those folk.


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Your source?

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I don't think follows necessarily


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I don't claim it's necessary according to human reason.

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And it's especially not true that the existence of matter proves there is a Christian God


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It's strong evidence. Whether it amounts to proof that an individual will accept depends on the individual's standard of proof.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

Using your same guidelines, can you please prove that you were born and not found under a rock?

Thanks,

Josh

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

I am by choice an atheist, because I enjoy the logical thinking behind trusting empirical evidence and I admire the advances scientific search for answers have made possible.

But our advances and answers are all models, and they can rarely be taken as a direct explanation of phenomena we observe. A simple example will for instance be the laws of newton...whereas physics now operate with many instances were these laws do not apply, they are still usable as a mathematical model for calculating and predecting the outcome of mechanics and force exerted on objects.

For instance, we do not KNOW what gravity is, but we have mathematical models by the dozens which allows us to calculate and predict its effects...so we know what it DOES, and hence we acknowledge that it exists.

Empirical science is very often like that, it predicts, measures, explains...but isn't essentalist..it rarely is an exact answer as to _what_ is going on. In that respect many of the more classical sciences are also about belief...you predict what it does, accept its existence...but rarely explain what it _is_.

Religion takes the other approach, it gives us the what and the why...but rarely if ever gives us the tools needed to measure, predict and calculate the effects of what happens around us.

I don't think setting your standpoint in any of those in any way implies that you can't believe in both. Evidence that god exists would be neat, bottom-of-the-line empirical solutions to what things ARE...as merely opposed to what they do...would also be neat.

Lack of those does not imply either are wrong. So in the end it all comes down to belief anyway.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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How about just anything observable

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This just turns into the same argument. We both know that the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved.

As far as observable, that depends on the observer doesn't it?

If we wanted to talk about logical conclusions, then we could debate.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Most of Europe before Columbus and all those folk.


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Your source?



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It was just an example. Perhaps nobody believed the world was flat and they lied to me all through school. All I was saying was that lots of people believing something is true doesn't mean that it is true. Lots of people believe in Islam, but you don't believe that Islam is a true religion from God do you?


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It's strong evidence. Whether it amounts to proof that an individual will accept depends on the individual's standard of proof.

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Could you explain this? Why does the existence of matter provide evidence of a Christian God as opposed to some other deity?

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

I agree completely. I never said that God doesn't exist. I just think that it is a matter of faith. There isn't any direct evidence of God and I've read a few comments from posters who believe that there is such evidence. I am just curious as to what this evidence is.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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It was just an example. Perhaps nobody believed the world was flat and they lied to me all through school.

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There is some (mixed) evidence that ancient civilizations believed the earth was flat, but it was generally acknowledged by around the 1st century that the earth was spherical. After Ptolemy developed his astronomy in the 2nd century no one believed the earth was flat. Columbus, after all, was trying to sail to India. To get there by going west from Europe, he would have had to sail around the globe--not over the edge.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Perhaps nobody believed the world was flat and they lied to me all through school.


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I don't know how many people told you everyone pre-Columbus believed the world was flat but it's very easy to determine what the real situation was. Many of the ancient Greeks believed the earth is round and even calculated the circumference fairly accurately as well as the distance to the Moon.

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Why does the existence of matter provide evidence of a Christian God as opposed to some other deity?


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In your OP you didn't specify the God of the Bible. I believe nature testifies to the existence of a Creator, the Bible provides more specific information.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

I never said that everyone believed the world was flat. Just that lots of people at one time did. It really doesn't matter. Maybe nobody thought the world was flat. The point is that just because many people believe X, it doesn't mean that X is correct or true.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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I don't know how many people told you everyone pre-Columbus believed the world was flat but it's very easy to determine what the real situation was. Many of the ancient Greeks believed the earth is round and even calculated the circumference fairly accurately as well as the distance to the Moon.


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I didn't say everyone. I said many people. But it doesn't matter, read my previous post.

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In your OP you didn't specify the God of the Bible. I believe nature testifies to the existence of a Creator, the Bible provides more specific information.

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I didn't say the God of the Bible in the OP, but I said it in the replies: "And it's especially not true that the existence of matter proves there is a Christian God."

But anyway, so the evidence of God is the Bible then? And why does the "Creator" of nature have to be the Christian conception of God? Couldn't it be multiple Creators for example?

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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I never said that everyone believed the world was flat. Just that lots of people at one time did. It really doesn't matter.

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Well, like I say, there is some evidence that people believed that in ancient civilization (although the remnants of ancient civilization are very limited), but by the 1st or 2nd century no one believed the earth was flat.

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Maybe nobody thought the world was flat. The point is that just because many people believe X, it doesn't mean that X is correct or true.

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Of course that is correct. I was just trying to fill in some holes where people might have lied to you all throughout school.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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But anyway, so the evidence of God is the Bible then? And why does the "Creator" of nature have to be the Christian conception of God? Couldn't it be multiple Creators for example?


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Some of the evidence that God exists is nature, order, design. That God is the God of the Bible is partly proved by the Bible itself.

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Some of the evidence that God exists is nature, order, design. That God is the God of the Bible is partly proved by the Bible itself.

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So then the existence of Allah is proven by the Koran?

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So then the existence of Allah is proven by the Koran?


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No.

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So then the existence of Allah is proven by the Koran?


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No.

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Could you explain this please?

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

Taraz, please reference the thread "Restating the Paradox" for an in-depth discussion of NotReady's logic in arguing that the universe is evidence for a creator. You'll find more than you ever wanted to know there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Could you explain this please?

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There are many difference between the Koran and the Bible, and many differences between each one's representation of God. They can't both be true.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Could you explain this please?

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There are many difference between the Koran and the Bible, and many differences between each one's representation of God. They can't both be true.

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Why not? God is infinite and therefore his reasons for creating 2 stories for 2 different cultures are beyond the capacity of your reason. You are just a man. Stop claiming to know the mind of God.

-g

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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God is infinite and therefore his reasons for creating 2 stories for 2 different cultures are beyond the capacity of your reason. You are just a man. Stop claiming to know the mind of God.


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Again very misled. All 3 sentences.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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God is infinite and therefore his reasons for creating 2 stories for 2 different cultures are beyond the capacity of your reason. You are just a man. Stop claiming to know the mind of God.


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Again very misled. All 3 sentences.

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Claiming I am misled in all 3 sentences is not SHOWING where I am misled. I will again make it clear logically. Please SHOW me where I am wrong.

1. God is infinite and infinitely knowing.
2. There are more than one "supposed" bibles/stories handed down by God.
3. These stories conflict.
4. Since God is infinite his reasons for handing down conflicting stories is beyond your knowledge or mine.
5. Claiming to KNOW that God could not hand down 2 conflicting stories is claiming to KNOW the mind of an infinite God.
6. A person who claims such knowledge is claiming that God is not infinite, and is indeed easier to understand than David Sklansky.
7. This person is a fool.

-g

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

I am by choice an atheist

Huh? Please tell me about all those who are atheists because someone is forcing them? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

<font color="blue">There are many difference between the Koran and the Bible, and many differences between each one's representation of God. They can't both be true. </font>

Yet, I'm sure you're willing to claim that there is a greater probability that YOUR bible is true. Wait... Scratch that... I'm sure you're willing to claim that there's a 100% probability that YOUR bible is the true one.

And why is that? Are members of YOUR religion more intelligent than Muslims? Have members of YOUR religion been privy to inside info on God that others aren't?

I have no problem with you forming whatever beliefs you want and justifying them in whatever ridiculous way you want. It just seems to me that your above response is overly pompous and self-important.

Why? What is it that causes only you and the members of your religion to know what's true? To think that only your sect has a real handle on things and sees the one true light. Especially since you're going on evidence which can't even be obversed, let alone proved.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

The unruly freshman graduates at the top of his class!

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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How about just anything observable

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This just turns into the same argument. We both know that the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved.

As far as observable, that depends on the observer doesn't it?

If we wanted to talk about logical conclusions, then we could debate.

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Of course, you're right. It is impossible to prove either the existence or non-existence of God. But would you agree that as a general rule, it is harder to prove the non-existence of something?

I am NOT trying to be silly here, but....

If you cannot taste, smell, touch, see, or hear any sign of a pink elephant in your room right now, what rational reason do you have to believe one is actually there? Now, you could turn the question around and ask me to prove one ISN'T there. And you'd be right that we've ran into the same unwinnable argument.

This question might sound cocky, but I don't mean it to be. I am genuinely interested in how you can rationalize the existence of something despite the complete absence of any observable evidence. It seems to be far more rational to simply conclude it isn't there and move forward from that point.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

Here.

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God is infinite and therefore his reasons for creating 2 stories for 2 different cultures are beyond the capacity of your reason.

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If you believe in the God of the Bible you know he didn't/wouldn't create 2 different stories for 2 different cultures.

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You are just a man.

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We are God's most precious creations, not "just" anything.

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Stop claiming to know the mind of God.


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A bit of a concession here. I still think you're misled because again if you believed in the God of the Bible, you'd be able to take His will as being perfect, and wanting the best for His children.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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Here.

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God is infinite and therefore his reasons for creating 2 stories for 2 different cultures are beyond the capacity of your reason.

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If you believe in the God of the Bible you know he didn't/wouldn't create 2 different stories for 2 different cultures.

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My point is that there are fundamental contradictions within your belief system. If you take the basic premise that God is all-powerful, you must then admit that everything which comes after is impossible for you to know or understand. Period.

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You are just a man.

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We are God's most precious creations, not "just" anything.

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My point in stating that is not to demean your importance--my point is to say that you do not have an infinite mind capable of understanding god. That is what "just a man" refers to. Or, in your language, don't put yourself on Jesus' level. Even he did not understand all of god's plans so how could you?
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Stop claiming to know the mind of God.


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A bit of a concession here. I still think you're misled because again if you believed in the God of the Bible, you'd be able to take His will as being perfect, and wanting the best for His children.

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The point is not what I believe. The point is what you believe. Your basic foundations do not make sense and for you to believe them means you are in a constant state of constradiction. Thats my opinion.
-g

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

The evidence that God exsists can purely be based on that there is no evidence for the alternative (evolution), but continous evidence for the Bible and God. And before you even start arguing with me, look and watch the debates of Dr. Kent Hovind www.drdino.com.

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I have no problem with you forming whatever beliefs you want and justifying them in whatever ridiculous way you want.


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The Bible didn't fall from the sky.

Re: Evidence that God exists
 

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My point in stating that is not to demean your importance--my point is to say that you do not have an infinite mind capable of understanding god.


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That's why God gave us His Word.