I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Live 9/18, where else.

Aggro UTG raises, semi-decent/not-out-of-line UTG+1 cold-calls, 3 more people cold-call, a hilariously bad fish calls in the SB, and I just call from the BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

7 to the flop for 14 small bets.

Flop comes Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

SB checks, I check, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, 3 cold-callers fold, SB calls, I call, UTG folds.

3 to the turn for 8.5 BBs.

Turn is the glorious T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check, UTG+1 bets, SB calls, I raise, UTG+1 calls, SB curses and folds.

River is the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I bet, UTG+1 raises, I fold.


EDIT: I just fixed the PF action (and thread title) because I had it mixed up with another AKo from the BB hand I played a few hands later.

Re: I shouldn\'t have raised AKo preflop!
 

Personally I don't think it's good advertising with your bet/fold in a very large pot, so even if you really are beat 20 times out of 21 against this guy (not impossible at all), I would have called.

And even if there's perhaps little value in it, you get to at least see if it was AKs he cold-called with preflop or the more probable QQ/JJ.

Re: I shouldn\'t have raised AKo preflop!
 

Saw now that you edited the hand, the pot is smaller now =)

Re: I shouldn\'t have raised AKo preflop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Saw now that you edited the hand, the pot is smaller now =)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, sorry I played two nearly identical hands with AKo from the BB. One of them I raised, one of them I just called. Luckily, the one I 3-bet (and it got capped by a limp-reraiser) I ended up winning with Aces Up.

In fact, there was a third hand I got AKo from the BB, and I just raised some limpers, and lost to 87o when I whiffed the flop and turn.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

I reraise preflop and I see a showdown.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Getting 16:1 I call this river. I think the rest of the hand was played fine

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the rest of the hand was played fine

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah okay whatever.

I challenge anyone to come up with a real, reasonable argument involving at least some math as to why just calling here before the flop can even be close to "fine."

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Given that you didn't 3bet preflop, I fold to the flop bet. There is a reasonable chance you are already drawing dead on the flop, and if not, you only have 3 outs you can be at all confident in, AND even if you hit one, half the deck may kill you on the river.

In summary; that flop is a nightmare for you, just fold.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the rest of the hand was played fine

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah okay whatever.

I challenge anyone to come up with a real, reasonable argument involving at least some math as to why just calling here before the flop can even be close to "fine."

[/ QUOTE ]

Id call because:

1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.

Theres a section on loose low limit games in
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players
by David Sklansky (Author), Mason Malmuth (Author)

It talks about not raising in AKo but raising with JTs

pretty interesting

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you're getting like 6 or 7 to one on your money. Last time I checked getting 6-1 on a 2-1 (of course you won't be ahead every time you flop a pair but most of the time you will be) bet is good stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK doesn't do so poorly in big multiway pots, especially when the players are really poor. Of the times you don't flop a pair, you will flop at least a nice draw the vast majority of the time.

[ QUOTE ]

Theres a section on loose low limit games in
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players
by David Sklansky (Author), Mason Malmuth (Author)

It talks about not raising in AKo but raising with JTs

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you read SSHE? If not you definitely should--you might reconsider your answer to this question after reading it.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you're getting like 6 or 7 to one on your money. Last time I checked getting 6-1 on a 2-1 (of course you won't be ahead every time you flop a pair but most of the time you will be) bet is good stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK doesn't do so poorly in big multiway pots, especially when the players are really poor. Of the times you don't flop a pair, you will flop at least a nice draw the vast majority of the time.

[ QUOTE ]

Theres a section on loose low limit games in
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players
by David Sklansky (Author), Mason Malmuth (Author)

It talks about not raising in AKo but raising with JTs

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you read SSHE? If not you definitely should--you might reconsider your answer to this question after reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I by no means think I know it all, I was just playing devils advocate as per the request [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I didnt come up with that stuff anyways, just repeating what i read.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.


[/ QUOTE ]

You still have an equity edge here, the point that someone with a pair is a favourite against you has nothing to do with it. By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money.

AK is perhaps not a dream in this multiway pot, but it's still correct to raise for value. You will win more than your fair share of the time.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.


[/ QUOTE ]

You still have an equity edge here, the point that someone with a pair is a favourite against you has nothing to do with it. By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money.

AK is perhaps not a dream in this multiway pot, but it's still correct to raise for value. You will win more than your fair share of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if someone has JJ and you raise aren't you the one making a mistake?

Not saying your wrong, Actually trying to learn something here. What you guys are saying is great feedback for my ocasional limit game at the casino.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]


I bet, UTG+1 raises, I fold.




[/ QUOTE ]

So there's zero chance he's got AK (and not the flush) here?

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Light bulb just went off in my head lol

Your talking about a raise for everyone you DO have beat. Makes perfect sense.

I was always thinking about going in with the best hand and applying an advantage over the entire table.

Thanks, this is really interesting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.


[/ QUOTE ]

You still have an equity edge here, the point that someone with a pair is a favourite against you has nothing to do with it. By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money.

AK is perhaps not a dream in this multiway pot, but it's still correct to raise for value. You will win more than your fair share of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if someone has JJ and you raise aren't you the one making a mistake?

Not saying your wrong, Actually trying to learn something here. What you guys are saying is great feedback for my ocasional limit game at the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're heads-up you're making a mistake. But if you for example have 5 fishes limping, and you raise and make them contribute even more money to the pot, they're providing more "dead money" to the pot; that is, money they will not win back in the long run, money you and the JJ-guy will fight for. The JJ-guy will have a slightly bigger share of that dead money, but you will have some of it too. Thus, the raise is for value.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you're heads-up you're making a mistake. But if you for example have 5 fishes limping, and you raise and make them contribute even more money to the pot, they're providing more "dead money" to the pot; that is, money they will not win back in the long run, money you and the JJ-guy will fight for. The JJ-guy will have a slightly bigger share of that dead money, but you will have some of it too. Thus, the raise is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent, thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the rest of the hand was played fine

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah okay whatever.

I challenge anyone to come up with a real, reasonable argument involving at least some math as to why just calling here before the flop can even be close to "fine."

[/ QUOTE ]

This discussion has happened so many times over in so many different forms that I'm really surprised that you haven't seen a convincing argument for it. On the Button I don't mind 3-betting and playing what amounts to all-in poker at all, and I don't mind a 3-bet here from the BB, but I don't think it's even close to mandatory. The fact that you've got a field you can either trap or eliminate based on flops, that your hand strength isn't pronounced in the slightest (often allowing you to gain more bets on a flop that you would have gained less from when you 3-bet preflop). Yes, you get a fair amount of equity when you 3-bet preflop; at the same time, you create what is tantamount to an all-in "see you at the river" situation for most people involved, which, while it is profitable, is often not nearly as profitable as seeing a flop and choosing to exploit the fact that you have a postflop edge over all the players involved in this pot.

That said, on the river, I pay the man his moneys.

Rob

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you get a fair amount of equity when you 3-bet preflop; at the same time, you create what is tantamount to an all-in "see you at the river" situation for most people involved, which, while it is profitable, is often not nearly as profitable as seeing a flop and choosing to exploit the fact that you have a postflop edge over all the players involved in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have a very solid point here.

I very much appreciate your explanation.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I reraise preflop and I see a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I apparently disagree with einbert's views on occasion this is unequivocally correct. The arguments for not 3-betting AKo from the blinds stems from the idea that given certain flops we can make up our lost equity by limiting the field because you kept the pot smallish and when you face the field with two cold (see Jason_t’s recent post for possibly a correct situation to do this), thus increasing your equity. The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr, but there are going to be very few flops where you are going to want to do that over other options. So basically given the position of the pfr collect your extra sklansky money now by raising this [censored] preflop and then play some poker.

As for the river, folding sucks. The pot is large and pretty much all of his full house hands don't make sense for a decent player and he his not going to have a flush enough to make your call unprofitable so pay the man.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr,

[/ QUOTE ]

When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely?

Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop.

Rob

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr,

[/ QUOTE ]

When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely?

Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but on the same note an over aggro will also 4-bet this preflop at a fair clip, thus building a huge pot for us where we have a decent edge.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr,

[/ QUOTE ]

When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely?

Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but on the same note an over aggro will also 4-bet this preflop at a fair clip, thus building a huge pot for us where we have a decent edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're getting 4-bet often enough by hands that you have a huge edge against, unless by "overaggro" he can translate it to "maniac."

Rob

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr,

[/ QUOTE ]

When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely?

Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but on the same note an over aggro will also 4-bet this preflop at a fair clip, thus building a huge pot for us where we have a decent edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're getting 4-bet often enough by hands that you have a huge edge against, unless by "overaggro" he can translate it to "maniac."

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
Even if we don't have a huge edge against UTG if he caps I think we can agree that we likely have a large edge against the 4 cold callers.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Hi Joker,

Being that you only called preflop, I would have folded the flop and stayed out of trouble. However, by calling the flop, I would have definitely bet out the turn and called a raise and check/called the river. I don't see a reason to get all frisky in a large pot. You need to make sure it's bet. A turn bet may also fold a small one card flush should UTG1 and/or SB have something like Jx9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If your opponents don't have a flush already, it can look utterly frightening, as if you slowplayed the flop to trap callers, then realized that it's 3-way and it's time to wrap things up.

UTG1 probably flopped a flush. The key here is that you called the flop and then FOUND what you're looking for. How can you bet/fold the river, rather than what I recommended in the previous paragraph?

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

I would never fold on the river here, especially against a guy you describe as aggro. If you know this guy is aggressive and you are going to fold to a rasie, why didn't you check and call here for that same one bet which was wasted??

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Your title was 6 words too long.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Why wouldn't he be thinking he just counterfeited twopair?

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

I think the river is a really, really necessary call, in my opinion.

Pre-flop is whatever and Rob's discussion of why not raising here is not only convincing but is of considerable theoretical interest and should be noted not only for how it applies here but for its general merit relating pre-flop and flop play.

I personally think the flop call is actually a lot thinner than people are making it out to be but with probably 4 outs or so effectively I can't see folding being a decent option as we're almost closing the action.

Turn is sweet.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

pj, I have to say I think the river fold is not good, unless there's some more read available that we didn't get. You have to put UTG+1 pretty much exactly on TT or AT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to make this fold, yes? He 3-bets AK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], QQ, and JJ preflop, right?

I would probably raise preflop, but if there were ever a time not to, this would be it, so I don't really care. I also fold the flop, not because I don't like my ~4 outs, but because I hate my RIO if I hit and I'm already dead or I hit and make someone a better hand, like my overs fill their straight or make them 2 pair.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
He 3-bets AK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], QQ, and JJ preflop, right?



[/ QUOTE ]

No. A lot of players seem to limp JJ, usually raise but sometimes limp QQ/AK. When it comes to 3-betting, unless they're a LAG you only see AA/KK when someone 3-bets live. Don't ask me why.

He's a semi-decent player, not a decent or good one.

Another thing to consider is my turn checkraise is pretty strong, and he'd have to think maybe I was slowplaying flopped clubs. Pairing the river and him raising means a boat a hell of a lot of the time. Even if he doesn't have a boat, he could have been the one slowplaying flopped clubs. But there's no way on this frightening board I get raised on the river with AK or less. You just don't see it from reasonable players.

Right or wrong, that was my reasoning anyway. Online, I pay it off every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. A lot of players seem to limp JJ, usually raise but sometimes limp QQ/AK. When it comes to 3-betting, unless they're a LAG you only see AA/KK when someone 3-bets live. Don't ask me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see a 3-bet from AK/KK/AA/QQ/JJ all the time when I play live, and I play in pretty passive games. I rarely see a cap from anything except AA/KK, however That said, it's usually either the better players or maniacs doing the 3-betting. Only takes a few hands to figure out which is which most of the time.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your title was 6 words too long.

[/ QUOTE ]

brilliant

preflop has merits on both sides.

I'm calling the river raise.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FOLD TO ONE MORE BET ON THIS RIVER, EVER AGAIN.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop has merits on both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you list some for the wrong...I mean calling side?

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

(1) i don't like money
(2) nope, still don't like it

those are the first that come to mind.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

But there's no way on this frightening board I get raised on the river with AK or less. You just don't see it from reasonable players.

Right or wrong, that was my reasoning anyway. Online, I pay it off every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key on the river. If you've played with the player enough to know he's not pulling a crazy stunt, he's only raising you when he's got you beat. Online you have got to call it.

But that takes us back to the question of why to bet out the river in the first place. I guess you potentially steal half the pot from a weakie with another AK with a single club, but that doesn't seem too likely. So what hand that you beat calls your value bet? K9? Top two?

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop has merits on both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you list some for the wrong...I mean calling side?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my post(s) rather than just being smug.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily a true statement. While its true they make a mistake by making their original pf call w/a less than adequate hand, when more money goes into the pot their mistake is lessened.

Example

Good player open raises utg, bad player cold calls the raise w/Q7o, 2 players call behind. You look down at AKo and 3 bet, utg calls and badplayer calls. What just traspired here is that bad player called 2 bets cold getting 3.5:2 on his call the first time around. This is clearly a mistake b/c his hand is likely more than a 3.5:2 dog in this situation and he will not play well enough post flop to recoup the losses. When the bad player has to make his next call, he's getting 12.5:1 on this hand. This is clearly a good call b/c his hand is much better than a 12.5:1 dog.

Inflating the pot pf does not necessarily exploit the greatest equity edge against our opponents in this situation. As entity pointed out, I like the ability to disguise my hand and plan my attack based on the flop strenth rather than be caught oop in a huge pot w/no way of protecting my hand.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Bet the turn, dont checkraise.

Check-call the river. I think it is a mistake to fold here against a strong player.