Where\'s the bet?
 

Here's some insight into a disease I have known as "passivity". MP1 is TAG; the rest are fishies. How bad is my PF call, and where should I have bet if anywhere? Muchas gracias.

Cryptologic 0.25/0.50 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.00 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

River: (7.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

Whooo..that preflop call is pretty damn awful.

I'm inclined to throw a value-raise/free-card play in on the flop, after MP1 bets, and the Button/SB call. It depends on how aggro MP1 is...will he 3-bet without a monster, because I don't want to face Button and SB with 2 more bets, even if they are donks.

If I raise the flop and it's checked to me on the turn, I probably bet and plan to take the free showdown UI (and I don't count pairing my jack as an improvement).

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

This is on of those flops that I start to go cross-eyed looking at. It's fairly coordinated and we do have an OESD, but there is a flush draw and one of our straigt cards puts 3 to a better straight on the board. Still, I probably go for the c/r on the flop with our relative position to the pf raiser.

Also, just lay it down preflop. I might consider calling with JTo but I think even that is too loose.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

God please don't ever call a raise again with J9o. Small blind, big blind, on the button---NEVER, just not worth it. Plus add that he's a TAG and it makes that play suicidal.

Other than that, I don't see a spot here that warrants a bet by you. MP1 checking the turn improves your chances of having the best hand, but by the river you're still beaten by any K or T, and I don't see you getting called enough by second-best hands on a board like this.

So, you got stuck with a marginal hand out of position against a raiser...which is exactly why you gotta bail before the flop even gets there.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

yah, we fold J9 to a raise in the BB. barely connected, not biggish

the rest is fine. you can't figure your 3rd pair is best in this field.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

Thanks for the feedback guys. I didn't necessarily think a C/R was good at the time given the connectedness of the board, and mostly that I'm trapping only one opponent for 2 cold.

I'm on a mission to find out where I'm being too passive (stats show about 1.9 post flop agg. over 1500 hands @ .25/.5). I feel like I've been running cold lately, but who knows.

Thanks again for the input.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whooo..that preflop call is pretty damn awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe it, have you guys learnt nothing after nearly 3000 posts?

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whooo..that preflop call is pretty damn awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe it, have you guys learnt nothing after nearly 3000 posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

The hyperbole describing preflop play in this forum is a little absurd. There is no way that calling in the BB with a better-than-abysmal hand getting 9-1 can be an awful mistake. It's a couple pennies at worst.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

100% agree.

This is a standard call for me, we can outplay these guys, and J9o is a fine hand when played compotently.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
100% agree.

This is a standard call for me, we can outplay these guys, and J9o is a fine hand when played compotently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh - I was hoping someone would say that. I thought the call was closer than was made out to be. Though, whether or not I'm competent enough to play this well post flop is another consideration altogether.

Thanks for chiming in ye almighty poohbahs [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

You have ~9 outs, bet on the flop.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have ~9 outs, bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I do have 9 clean outs, this wouldn't be for value. I'm almost certainly not peeling one off for free on the turn with TAG in late. Right?

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whooo..that preflop call is pretty damn awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're getting awesome odds with a decent multiway hand - it might not be standard but it's definitely not awful

it's probably -EV to fold this compared to calling

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

All this talk about postflop competency is true, but even if you're god's gift to postflop play, how can it be profitable to put yourself in this spot, out of position against 3 to act after you including a PFR?

I admit my postflop skills are still very much in the works, so why would I try to swim upstream with this hand when I can wait for better spot to put in my money and use whatever postflop competency I may have.

Put me on the BUTTON with J9o 5-handed and then I'm willing to pay for a flop.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

This is a very good question.

As you play more hands, you get a feel as to how much a hand is worth, what % of flops you'll like, and what you can exploit.

If you look at the stats, J9o is going to produce top pair x amount of times, a good draw, a weak draw, and maybe a combination. Because the pot will be large for only 1 bet, seeing a flop is good here, because we're paying so cheapily.

In the end, thats what it comes down too. Yes, J9o will lose. It will get outdrawn, it will get bruised. But because seeing the flop is so cheap for how big the pot will be, we must do it.

Oh, and trust me, hands like J9o show a profit. J7o though would be a fold for me, J8o would be marginal. As the connectiveness/top pair chances wear down, the hand starts to suck a lot more.

Re: Where\'s the bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have ~9 outs, bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I do have 9 clean outs, this wouldn't be for value. I'm almost certainly not peeling one off for free on the turn with TAG in late. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Aaron. I agree that you don't have nine outs here (maybe 6). How many outs do you need to bet for value if you know it will be 4-handed? (Say there are two callers between you and the TAG.) How many outs do you need to bet for value if you know it will be at least 3-handed?