Question on cold calling preflop
 

In Hold 'Em Poker , Sklansky writes:
"Any hand that can call a raise cold is strong enough to raise with. This usually applies to after the flop also, and in fact, to all poker games. . . . If his hand wasn't strong enough to raise with, it probably was not good enough to call a raise cold."

Yet, the next paragraph states " even in later position, you must have a very good hand to call a raise cold. It can be jsut a trifle bit worse however than those hand necessary to call in middle positions, . . . Also if there have been many cold callers you can call a raise cold with hands you prefer against many opponents."

First, I feel from the first statement that is never correct to cold call, either reraise or fold. Or does he mean, only cold call a bet with a hand that you would have raised with if no one raised.

Second, he tells when to cold call in late position, which i thought he discouraged in the first place. (all of this takes place on p. 43 of the 1997 edition). So which is it?

the reason I ask this is that frequently I have a hand on the button or CO that I am planning to raise with (AJs, ATs, KQs, etc.) and someone will raise. I will go ahead and cold call, keeping in mind these passages, and the way it works out there is never any detectable pattern to whether that was right or not based on the hands. Should I be cold-calling with these hands? or should I be folding them if I can't reraise them. i know of the AQ test in the Feeney book, but i don't play at a limit where this thinking is advantageous. if i play with people who raise UTG with Axs, then I am not folding AJs. Any thoughts?

-AA

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

AA, I understand exactly your confusion on the passage that you quoted from T.O.P . The first few times that I read it, I didn't really understand what he meant as well. I think that you hit it on the head when you interpret that he is advising you only stay in with a hand that you would consider raising with if it had been checked to you. If you are in later position and have had several cold callers in between you and the raiser, then your requirements can be slightly lower. With the hands that you listed (AJs,ATs,KQs)you have to ask," what type(s) of flop fit my hand?" With you listing high suited as you example, should I assume that your hoping for a favorable four to a flush? With two pocket suited you will hit a four flush about 11% of the time (8/1). You would want to have a few callers in between you and the preflop raiser in order to make this call. You do have big cards so you have more options than just the flush, but what is the PFR holding? The typical low limit player will raise with just about anything [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img], but I have found in my experience that if you put him/her on AK, you are closer to the mark then AA,KK, or even QQ. I would call with the hands you list as examples if you have other callers in between (see the flop as cheaply as possible-if your staying in) As you know it depends a lot on the playing habits of the PFR....it certainly helps if you have a grasp on his style of play. The one advantage that you have is postion....use it, and good luck!

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Most pre-flop play is automatic, but there is a lot of "it depends" stuff too. Generally cold-calling raises before the flop is a sign of a bad player. Good players prefer to re-raise or fold. In deciding whether to fold, call, or re-raise, many factors come into play.

In the situation you describe where you are in LP and face a raise with no one else calling, I would consider first my opponent and his position. What types of hands does he open-raise with in EP, MP or steal position? Obviously, you should be more inclined to re-raise a maniac and fold against a rock. Consider also the effect of 3 betting. Will the blinds likely fold? If your opponent 4 bets, will this help define his hand? Will re-raising help you take control after the flop? How does your opponent play after the flop?

Looking at your hand, you've correctly identified the often marginal hands when faced with a raise. AQo, AJs, ATs, KQs, and I would also add TT. Against a "legitimate" raise, anything stronger and I am almost always re-raising. Anything worse, and I am usually folding. Like you, I think in most of the games I play, AQo is too strong to fold. AQo and TT are usually a re-raise for me, as these hands prefer 2 as opposed to 3 or 4 opponents. I am more inclined to fold ATs and KQs against a normal player's raise, and cold-call (or fold) with AJs, but "it depends"...

Finally, there is one situation where it really doesn't "depend". Against a steal raise, when you are in LP or SB, almost all of the time, you are in a re-raise or fold situation.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

if i play with people who raise UTG with Axs, then I am not folding AJs. Any thoughts?

No, don't fold, 3-bet. If you can't 3-bet, fold. I'm no fan of cold-calling, never will be. The types of hands you listed are 3-bet/fold. When do you 3-bet? Depends on what you think about the open-raiser, his/her position, and quality of starting hands.

So, NEVER cold call? - wrong. Situation: Loose-aggressive raises UTG and gets 4 cold-callers - I hold KQs on the button - call (well, I might ram-jam 3-bet depending on the the quality of play between the cold callers and hope my hand hits big for a big pot) [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Off to the races,
Joe

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

you cold call if there are some players between you and the raiser, or if you know it's unlikely to be raised behind you, but will get many callers.

you reraise when youre the first to act after the raise.

these are some vague guidlines. many other factors can sway the decision.

it is correct to coldcall at times. never say never. the AQ test is primarily for AQo.

it also depends on the raiser.

b

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

ArchAngel:
My read of the two passages is this: you want to have a hand strong enough to raise with if you are going to cold-call, but just because you have a hand strong enough to raise with doesn't mean you have to raise. The strength of your hand is just one factor in deciding whether or not to raise (position, number of other players, how they play...).

I also wonder whether it might not pay to raise with AJs after the player who opens does so with AXs where the X could be anything, and then a good number of players cold-call before the betting gets to you. I would think that in this situation you'd want to raise as often as possible to tie players on when you hit that flush. I'm not saying I'd always recommend a raise. But if your first thought is "do I have a hand strong enough to raise with", then in the right case you can go on to the second thought: "Do I want to raise here?"

And don't be surprised if you find a raise worthwhile in more situations than you may have thought.

Gino

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

The typical low limit player will raise with just about anything.

I disagree. Change raise to "call" and your statement is true. There are too many low limiters online that raise with with crap. They might be a little looser than S&M but not that much with their raising standards. There is a huge difference between a loose limper and a loose raiser.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

I believe you have to pay attention to your opponent. If she is a rock, then fold your AJs because you are at risk of being dominated. If a maniac, call w/ AJs and see how you like the flop.

Note that Phil Hellmuth in his intermediate strategy advocates raising with Axs sometimes and calling a raise at other times with Axs.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

"Or does he mean, only cold call a bet with a hand that you would have raised with if no one raised."

I think your interpretation above is correct.


If Sklansky had meant it the other way the quote would have read:

Any hand that can call a raise cold is strong enough to reraise with. This usually applies to after the flop also, and in fact, to all poker games. . . . If his hand wasn't strong enough to reraise with, it probably was not good enough to call a raise cold.


SF

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Looking at your hand, you've correctly identified the often marginal hands when faced with a raise. AQo, AJs, ATs, KQs, and I would also add TT

Right, I have no problem playing AA, KK, AK against a preflop raiser because i would re-raise. On the same line there is no problem with KJo, QTs, QJo, KTs. These are good hands to limp with in LP if everyone is in. My problem lies when I get those marginal hands that I am automatically thinking raise, AQ, AJ, TT, KQs. Someone in EP or LP raises. Now i think about the sklanksy passage, get pretty confused, and either end up folding or calling.

What I am getting from these posts is that if am going for a flush, i need 8:1 pot odds, so if am on the button, and UTG open-raises, i need everyone to cold call for me to cold call. If, however, a MP were to raise, I should only consider re-raising or folding.

However, i still think the passage in the book is confusing. Let's say I'm on the button and my AQs/TT/KQs is worth a raise. UTG open raises, and it folds to me (maybe one, two, or three cold callers). Now, as i understand it, since my hand was worth a raise IF NO ONE HAD RAISED, then i should go ahead and cold-call (this is based on sklanky's statement). If my hand was something i would have just limped in with if no one had raised,then i fold. if it is something like AA/AK/KK then reraise. Is ths correct? Or should i be thinking raise/fold, as I have to keep reminding myself, is often the correct play in Hold'em.

-AA

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Actually about the only time I cold call is with medium pairs and suited connectors. Big pairs I reraise with. AK and AQs I reraise with. But medium pairs and most suited connetors I only cold call if I'm pretty sure at least three other people will be in the pot. See my post "What I'm doing differently" in another thread for details. You give examples of several hands that are worth cold calling with as long as you have 3 other people with you.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

you dont need to have the full 8-1 preflop. remember implied odds? this is why you can call with less odds preflop because youll make up for it by being paid off postflop.

b

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Sorry AA,

I liked some of your post in the past, but I have major disagreements with this one. KJo, and QJo are terrible hands to play in a raised multiway pot. These hands can easily trap you and you are the one giving the implied odds in these situations. The suited hands are much better in this situation.

TT I would fold if there arn't enough people in the pot, but no way do I reraise. (JJ is an automatic reraise against everyone except complete rocks, weird how little a difference it takes). AQs is probably worth a reraise, I would fold AQo especially if lots of people are in, and you should not even be thinking of calling with AJo. KQs is a definite call if enough people are in. Only reraise if the original reraiser is a very loose raiser.

If you have a four flush you don't need anywhere near 8:1. pot odds are 4:1, and if you don't fear a raise behind you on the flop implied odds mean basicaly always call. If it's multi-way (4 or more players) raise.

Hope I'm not being too tough here.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Uh-oh,

I just noticed I said some of the same things earlier in this thread. I'm not trying to spam. It was a couple of day ago, I had forgot about it. Errors happen. I apoligize again.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Sklansky: "Any hand that can call a raise cold is strong enough to raise with"

You: "Now, as i understand it, since my hand was worth a raise IF NO ONE HAD RAISED, then i should go ahead and cold-call (this is based on sklanky's statement)."

All apples are red, but all red things aren't apples.

Sklanksy is saying any hand which is correct to play against a raise is also correct to open-raise or raise after some limpers. But the converse is not true. All hands that are correct to open-raise are not correct to cold call a raise.

Like all things red, the universe of open-raising hands is much larger than the number of hands that are correct to cold-call a raise (apples). While all hands that are correct to cold-call a raise belong to the group of open-raising hands, many other hands do to. For example, on the button, if all fold to me, I sometimes like to raise any two cards higher than 8. But I would be crazy to call a raise cold with my Q8o.

The value of a hand is relative. A raise in front of you reduces the value of your hand, often changing what would have been a raise for you, into a fold.

(okay, some apples are green or whatever..)

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Coldcalling raises with medium and small suited connectors is the fast track to the poorhouse. Yes, even with 3 others in the pot.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

"TT I would fold if there arn't enough people in the pot, but no way do I reraise. (JJ is an automatic reraise against everyone except complete rocks, weird how little a difference it takes). AQs is probably worth a reraise, I would fold AQo especially if lots of people are in, and you should not even be thinking of calling with AJo. KQs is a definite call if enough people are in. Only reraise if the original reraiser is a very loose raiser."

If you acknowledge the difference is little, it does not make sense that one hand is worth a 3-bet while the other is a fold.

-Mike

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

To: rkiray

Sorry, I did not make myself clear.


KJo, QJo I have no problem playing. In an unraised pot, its fine, but when someone raises, i have no problem throwing it away, i was trying to narrow the hands down to those that are better than these hands but worse than AA, KK which is an automatic re-raise. The marginal hands that are strong, but are suddenly weakned by a raise. If UTG open raises, and everyone cold-calls, i am still throwing away unsuited high connecters, unless maybe AK.

I am glad you brought up JJ. At times I like it like KK, QQ. At other times i like it like TT. These are the hands I am talking about, with AA, KK, QQ reraise is automatic, with TT folding is usually a good play. So what about the hand in the middle. Cold-calling?

Thanks for your advice on the AQs, the problem with AQo is that in the limits I play, I think to throw this hand away is often to throw away a hand that could be second best, but actually will more often become second best, so I should probably do it anyway, its just frusturating to repeatedly see an open-raise, i throw away AQo, and the open raiser had like A6o, or K9s, or some crap.

SO you would cold call with KQs if enough people get there.

I don't have the four-flush yet, this was in response to someone's post about whether to cold-call with big suited, KQs, QJs, KJs? they said you hit the four-flush 11% (8:1) of the time. So i would need a large pot preflop before it gets to me to justify my cold-call.

You weren't being tough at all, this post has been very informative in clearing up leaks in my game.

-AA

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

Sklanksy is saying any hand which is correct to play against a raise is also correct to open-raise or raise after some limpers. But the converse is not true. All hands that are correct to open-raise are not correct to cold call a raise.

Thank you, this is the answer I was looking for.

-AA

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

I didn't make myself completely clear either. The advice before was for use against typical players. I would play less against rocks (throw away JJ, maybe even QQ if I believe it's a total rock who only raises with AA or KK, and there are a couple of players like this at Paradise). Against a very agressive raiser (A6o, K9o), I play more of those hands and then I reraise with hands like AQo, especially if I believe I can get heads up with the loose raiser. But I don't do this until I've seen 3 or 4 loose raises from a player in a fairly short time (on-line in an hour or two). This is what makes poker tough. An answer depends on many things.

Re: Question on cold calling preflop
 

The reason why that there isn't much difference between TT and JJ but one is worth a 3-bet and the other is a fold, is because I strongly believe that you should almost never call a raise. You should reraise or fold. The only exceptions are drawing hands like medium pairs and medium suited connectors in multiway pots. I know Clarkmeister disagrees with this, but all I can say is it's working for me (the medium pairs and medium suited connectors). These hands though I get away from very quickly if I don't catch a big part of the flop. Basically I fold them unless I flop a set, a four flush, or an oesd. Or better, flopping a straight is of course excellent [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] (doesn't happen often though). You can win really big pots this way.