Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

first round of preliminary WSOP event, $2000 pot limit holdem, blinds 25/50.


Hero starts the hand with T2600, villain with T2200.

Hero - universally regarded world class player - has QQ in early postion and opens for 150.

folds to villain in the small blind who reraises to 350 - villain is unknown but has played two hands in the first 45 mins, this is the first hand he has raised.

hero calls.

Flop (T1050): Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
villain checks, hero checks

Turn (T1050): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
villain bets 250, hero calls

River (T1550): 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
villain goes all in for 1450, hero folds


Great laydown, or just a good way to sell some books?

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

If this is a great laydown, it's wayyyyy over my head.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

ew

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

Standard.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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If this is a great laydown, it's wayyyyy over my head.

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Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

I can dodge bullets baby.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

Does he have 34 or AA 66% of the time?
Edit:

Ignore the rest of this post, i read the hand wrong.


STILL dont like the play though.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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Does he have 34 or AA 66% of the time?

This is ridiculous.

AQ Q6 66 QQ 22 55 A5 and more could play it this way.

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How many of those hands is a rock going to reraise with though?

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

I'm not laying this down ever at any level against any oppponent, my read to put my opponent on one hand isn't that good, nobody's is.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

How about AK and KK.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

AK is most likely, deciding he's just gonna shut things down right here.. I don't see you getting re-raised with any other holding (maybe AQ based on table image)

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

If he has Aces I'm going broke here.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does he have 34 or AA 66% of the time?

This is ridiculous.

AQ Q6 66 QQ 22 55 A5 and more could play it this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

couple of things. If it's even as low as 60% we could make an argument for passing up small edges early.

second, very very few of the hands you mentioned are reraising preflop - AQ is even very unlikely as there are only 3 combos of AQ (only one is suited) and three combos of AA

JJ/KK seem so possible though (trying to push off weaker ace??)


but yeah I think it's a bad fold too.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

yea i read the hand wrong (thoought villain opened from the SB, ,w/ hero in the BB)

i edited those out of my post.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

hero == Barry Greenstein

"It's hard to imagine any hand other than pocket Aces that would bet in this fashion. It certainly seems right to fold."


this is from <u>Ace on the River</u> an otherwise fine book.


fyi villain showed pocket aces barry showed queens, which "sent the table into a minor frenzy" no kidding

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

He must have told Berry he had aces [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. No way in hell im getting away from this one. Not even once in thousands of the same scenario.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

I recognized the hand immediately.

I could never fold here but that's why I'm not Barry.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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I recognized the hand immediately.

I could never fold here but that's why I'm not Barry.

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I did too. Let me try to explain the laydown:

Unknown villain "confidently" (as Barry describes it) reraises preflop after Barry open-raises. Figure him for a strong holding.
Villain checks flop. Why? AK surely bets TPTK. KK might check fearing the ace. Same with JJ. AA might check to trap. So we can probably rule out AK. Probably one of the big pairs.
Turn: A very tiny bet. Means almost literally nothing. Same as before, so we call.
River: Immediately, villain "lunges forward" and shoves the rest of his chips in. You think KK or JJ plays it that way?
Barry's point is that even though he has second set, top set is the ONLY hand that makes sense given villain's play, so he folds.
I think it's a good reminder for those of us who get married to really good hands to pay attention to the information that tells us we're beaten. It's not always easy, but it IS possible to take your play to that level.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

I understand his reasoning and line of thought, but I go broke on this hand. I also don't happen to be a millionaire who writes books about my profession.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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[couple of things. If it's even as low as 60% we could make an argument for passing up small edges early.


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Really???? Better be WORLD CLASS as stated then....

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

Impressive, I will never be a world class player evidently.

X

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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I understand his reasoning and line of thought, but I go broke on this hand. I also don't happen to be a millionaire who writes books about my profession.

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Well, I don't think any of us are as experienced or successful as he is, which is why I also try to take the opportunity to learn from this example. You know, learn to think like the best players do, even when it means a level we may have not even previously considered possible.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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Great laydown, or just a good way to sell some books?

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I hope this doesn't mean that you think it didn't happen. There was a table full of witnesses. Before the hands were shown, Hassan Habib (who was to my left) called both hands. I actually didn't think it was that spectacular, but players at my table spread the story around the room. If I didn't have a table full of witnesses, I wouldn't have put it in the book.

Funny thing is, most people who have criticized the hand being in the book, said it was too easy a laydown the way the guy bet it, to put it in the book. If he had bet normally and acted normally I would have gone all in.

Barry

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

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Funny thing is, most people who have criticized the hand being in the book, said it was too easy a laydown the way the guy bet it, to put it in the book. If he had bet normally and acted normally I would have gone all in.

Barry

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well, to be fair, in the OP, nothing was mentioned about physical tells or anything like that. so most of our responses were just based on the fact that we were reraised PF by a rock, and were meant to fold a set of queens on a fairly innocent board because of it.


i still don't think i would fold the set here, but that's not to say i think the fold is bad given the read. i just don't have the talent, i don't think, to make a read that good nor the discipline to stick with it.

Re: Great laydown or FPS? set of queens heads up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Funny thing is, most people who have criticized the hand being in the book, said it was too easy a laydown the way the guy bet it, to put it in the book. If he had bet normally and acted normally I would have gone all in.

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Yeah, but that's also why it makes a good example: it IS possible to fold second set, but only when your opponent bets his hand so badly that he might as well turn his cards over. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]