beating the ultra loose game
 

This weekend 2/4 in Shakopee, MN. They have 9 tables running, with a lonnnnnng waiting list. Almost every table i was involved in on the weekend was almost identical.

6-9 players seeing every flop.
5-6 players seeing every turn.
4-6 players seeing the river.

i understand how to beat 2-3 loose players at a table, but when the entire table is calling backdoor str8/flush draws, middle, low pair, or any over card, how do you win in these games?

currently i cant get this hand out of my head..

im sb with K[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 6 callers to me, i check because i dont think raising from the blinds does much good as far as getting people to fold out, especially in this game.

bb checks 7 of us see the flop.

T[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

im thinkign SWEEEEET

i check, checks to late position who bets, the one player between us calls, i raise. bb folds, utg calls cold, one other calls cold, and lp bettor calls.

turn is 7[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

i think.. even sweeter all those people callign with 8s are going to be sucked in.

i fire, get raised by the next guy, 3rd party folds, original lp bettor calls 2 bets cold. i 3bet, get 4 bet. lp folds, i cap at 5 bets, and called naturally.

river 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

i bet, he raises, i call.

turns over 97o :\

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

when the entire table is calling backdoor str8/flush draws, middle, low pair, or any over card, how do you win in these games?

Stange. I always ask how a good player can't beat these games. The simple answer is to value bet a lot.

I don't know why you are complaining about this hand. You're opponent had a hand worth continuing on with on every post-flop street.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

im not anywhere near a good player, or atleast i dont consider myself one. i play very tight preflop suited connected 45 or higher, pocket pairs, or suited one gap in late position or over 10 to call. only raise AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ preflop, unless coming in UTG then i raise with anything i might call with.

and calling 2 bets on the flop cold with bottom pair [censored] kicker, and capping the turn with bottom 2 when any 8 makes a straight is what frustrates me, not if he woulda called me down and raise the river. or perhaps 1 raise on the turn.

anyhow thanks for the advice, anyone else?

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

You mentioned raising to drive people out. In games like this, that part of your game becomes ineffective. I think of it as essentially having one less tool to work with. To compensate for this, I think you have to get money in the pot at every opportunity when you think you have the best hand. Since they call with garbage, take every opportunity to make them pay. It's straightforward, non-tricky poker for the most part.

The hand you posted is the type of hand you dream about in a game like this. You got the money in the pot when you should have, but it just didn't work out. Unfortunately, runner runner beat you. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

You can also search through the older posts for more threads about beating games like this.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

The first time a player encounters a game like this, it can be bewildering and confusing. You know that your opponents are terrible, but you are losing. You start to question your own sanity, and wonder why the things you usually do to win aren't working. A game like this will also test a player's tolerance for bad beats. After runner runner whatever beats you a few times, how will you respond?

That's why he's complaining.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I have played in these games at Canterbury before also. With that many people involved, be prepared for large bankroll swings. Pots can be 30+ BBs at this game. You don't (and won't) drag many, but one or two pots make a huge difference in your stack. At this limit with these types of players it is pretty hard to put players on a hand. Also, I want to second what another poster stated. If your intention on raising is to limit the field- forget it because it isn't going to happen. I swear you could turn your cards face up and raise and you will still get worse hands to call.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

These games, are easy to beat, but your progress won't be in a straight line. On this hand, there was a 24 big bet pot, and your opponent hit his 4 outer on the river to hit it. That was almost a $100 swing, and these hands will happen both ways, all the time. On the day that you get a couple of extra wins, you will have a massive amount of chips, (I once won over $600 in a 2-4 game) and on the day when you lose those swings, you will end up in the parking lot muttering to yourself. Last night, I was playing 4-8, and won a little over $100, but I won one pot that was over $140 preflop. If that hand goes the other way, I don't have a winning session, and with 7 players in, regardless of my hand, I am not going that hand much more often than 1 out of 3 times.

You want to play hands that will make big hands, and when you do, play them to get the most money in the pot. Pocket pairs, especially for their value in making sets, suited connectors, and big suited cards are the cards you want to play.

On the hand in question, I would probably have raised out of the big blind preflop.

After the flop, I would have bet out, instead of checkraising. You want to build a big pot when you flop the nuts, so betting and three betting, or betting, calling a raise, and checkraising the turn will probably build a bigger pot, than checkraising the flop.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

i wouldnt say the opponent played i well on the flop. cold calling 2 in this spot with a low pair, crap kicker isnt a good play.

though it doesnt change the fact that you want him to call in this spot...

b

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

"im sb with KQ 6 callers to me, i check because i dont think raising from the blinds does much good as far as getting people to fold out, especially in this game."

you should explore other reasons for raising. this is an easy raise preflop. youre not trying to fold anyone out.

b

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

You're opponent had a hand worth continuing on with on every post-flop street.

Does everyone agree with this statement? I don't.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

glad to see alot of points made here. to homer, no i dont think his hand was worth staying in for, however that exactly what he was waiting for was a second pair, and thats what i figured him for but what more can i do but keep raising?

anyhow my bankroll took a hit this weekend at 60BB :\ ouch.

i still have a whole lot to learn and i'll be the first to admit it. now i have a new perspective of this type of game, thanks for the info.

You\'ll never be able to beat these games if...
 

...you keep bringing river cards like that. Try a 2 next time... or a 5... or an A.. or whatever. But the 7 was just about your worst option...

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I would've folded 97 on the flop.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

As stated, your bankroll swings will be much bigger.

If you want to get an idea of how big your swings will be... try playing at the tightest Paradise Poker Play Money tables. About 65% see the flop. A good number of the hands play out similarly to ultra-loose 2-4.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

The pot was large and I'm not as quick to assume that a 7, 8, or 9 won't be good as most people are.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

Here's a bit of unintuitive truth: just because the weak hand is justified in calling because the pot is big doesn't mean the good hand is losing money. No, the good hand is MAKING money and in the long run the bad hand is losing money. If you bet as a 3:1 favorite and I call as a 3:1 dog, YOU are making a half a bet every time that happens. Just because you are happy I called if its a small pot and wish I had folded in a big pot doesn't matter much. So in the long run you need to play hands that become the favorite more often than not, which are the hands chosen by "selective" players.

Loose passive games are a synch (cinch?). Play somewhat selectively before and on the flop, then flail away mindlessly with most of the hands you want to play. By the time you figure out you are beat the pot is so big you end up paying it off. So be it. If you win 30% of your hands against 4 people you are way ahead of the game.

The loose aggressive games become much more of a problem. You need to play VERY selectively and can, in fact, never bet.

You need to let go of the notion that you can accurately predict the player's hands and can therefore know whether or not you are going to win.

Compared to a "real" game change your thinking: you "let" them give you their money more, and "extract" it less.

- Louie

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

what turn card isnt a scare card here? even if your in the lead...

youre going to call this down? please...

that's a long way to go with bottom pair and a crap kicker.

if you really think your 9 is good, how about a 3 bet? knock out some overcards on the flop. this isnt a calling situation here. but odds are, with 2 players active, youre behind

b

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I have a semi-private game like this that I sruggle with as well. And mine is worse I think because it plays 12-handed with a school of fish.

And I really think you're underestimating the implied collusion when you raise UTG and get 7 callers. If the flop doesn't smack you, you're behind. period. And even if you're ahead with your top pair, you have 7 people drawing to straights, flushes, sets, and two pair that you're not an odds-favorite to win the hand.

These people will call two cold like they're in the small blind and putting in half a bet instead of two. (3 bets will fold most of them though)

Come fly down to Miami. I'd be happy to introduce you to the best/worst game of 10-20 in the world!

Stange. I always ask how a good player can't beat these games. The simple answer is to value bet a lot.

I can't help but take this comment as a condescending attitude. There is no way a simle "value bet a lot" statement can beat my game. If you can beat it, its because you use every last trick, every last piece of know-how and hand reading skill you have.

And value betting doesn't prevent 7 people from sucking out on you smarty.

Don't trivialize how to play a game like this. Perhaps you've never really played in one?

And yes, when the cards are running good, I can run over this game. And when they're not, the game runs over me. I challence you to do any better.

Come to miami. And put your money where your mouth is.

And going 5 bets with 2 pair seems excessive to me as well.

-Scott

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

That game sounds crazy!

You said one thing that I found interesting, though...
If you can beat it, its because you use every last trick, every last piece of know-how and hand reading skill you have.

I always have found that playing in these types of games greatly discourage trickery. In an 8 hour session I may try to steal 2 pots and be successful once. Being fancy in these games is death.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I don't mean trick to imply bluff.

I mean trick as every last weapon in your poker arsenal, implying it takes every last ounce of your ability to beat it.

-Scott

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I can't help but take this comment as a condescending attitude. There is no way a simle "value bet a lot" statement can beat my game. If you can beat it, its because you use every last trick, every last piece of know-how and hand reading skill you have.

Condescending and Dynasty, never, just reality, brutal reality. Scott, I have to agree with Dyn, here. I'm sure Dyn uses every trick and all his hand reading skills in addition to value-betting.

And value betting doesn't prevent 7 people from sucking out on you smarty.

True, but in the long run it will score you a big advantage.

Don't trivialize how to play a game like this. Perhaps you've never really played in one?

I'm sure Dynasty didn't jump into the 10/20 at the Mirage after seeing the WSOP on ESPN one day, everyone works the ranks I assume.

I've learned something as of late. Recently, I've become a steady player at the loose 4/8 at foxwoods. I have had more winning sessions than losing. My last 3 sessions I've played my best, however, I felt the worst on the way home from these sessions than I did a losing one. Why? I was going over in my head where I missed value-bets. The next time down, I missed less. This last time, my biggest winning session, I missed 2 bets I could count in a 7 hr session, and I couldn't get them out of my head on the way home. Therefore, I feel missing opportunities in these types of loose games are CRUCIAL to long term success.

Miami, eh? I've got a friend I need to visit on South Beach. I'll go if Dyn can't make it. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] I'll brush up on my Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, I hear the women love tall, blonde, blue-eyed Americans. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Peace,
Joe

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

Right on the point:

If you have a hand that is likely to be best, bet or raise it.

Don't try to steal a pot with 6 to play behind you. That's just dumb.

At best, you can use position to try to make folks make bigger mistakes by calling 2 or more cold when they shouldn't, or harm their odds by raising/check-raising appropriately.

And most important, you have to show down a hand to win almost all of the time. So when you aren't hitting anything, be content to fold.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

You should play the 5-10! The skill level varies, but it can be just as good as the 4-8. Plus, there are a lot of killed pots, so you get to play 10-20 against bad players. Fun!

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I live on Ocean Drive in South Beach. You must look me up if you come this way. I'd be happy to introduce you to my game as well [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

But like Dyn, I think you're missing my points. For starters, if he's using all his abilities, then don't trivialize what it takes to beat this game by saying "all" you need to do is value bet.

Secondly there are loose games, and there are LOOSE games. Playing the 4-8 game at Foxwoods is nothing like the 12-handed super-fish game I play. These really loose games are a big challenge and provide quite a large SD swing.

And no, even when 7 people see the flop, that doesn't mean 7 people see the river! The game where that happens is a fantasy, and would be easy to beat. when 7-8 people see the flop, the best 3-4 hands then keep playing.

And raising UTG with AQ and getting 3 fish calling you is far, far different than getting 6 or 7 fish calling you.

And I'd offer that your personal mental state - the ability to stay on your "A" game in the face of a string of bankroll shriveling bad beats - is far more important than the last "value bet"...especially when that CS on the other end of the table just hit their second pair with their j8o (after calling 2 cold preflop and flopping an 8)

And yea, I know they're horrible. And I know they never maximize their good hands, and they slowplay at the wrong time and bitch about the bad beat. And call with horrible hands. And they'll never make money playing poker. Thats all irrelevant.

Just my thoughts,

-Scott

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

And I really think you're underestimating the implied collusion when you raise UTG and get 7 callers.

The more I think about it, the more I think the fear around implied collusion is just BS. The collective field usually has the odds to call. But, their odds are not that great and your making loads of money on their calls.

Let's say you raise UTG with QQ and get those 7 callers. The flop comes T, 6, 2 rainbow.

These hands are out against you: A9, JT, 98, 76, 44, and total cheese. That's 5 opponents drawing live on the flop to 15 collective outs.

With 8.5 big bets in the pot when you bet the flop, your 5 collective opponents are getting 3.4:1 to call 2.5 big bets. With 37 unseen cards, they are only 1.5:1 to improve on the turn. If you get in a check-raise on the flop, the entire collective field is barely getting the right price to see the turn.

Assuming you bet the flop and everyone calls, there will be 11 big bets in the pot going to the turn. Let's say a blank deuce hits the turn.

When you bet the turn, you will be putting the 12th big bet into the pot. The field has to call 5 big bets and are now only getting 2.4:1 on their calls. They have the odds. But, you are making a lot on those calls.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

How convenient! To justify your position with a picture-perfect flop for your hand...

A monkey can play a hand with an overpair. How about some real-world hands?

How about make it jacks (or queens), same number of callers, with an Ace and King on the flop. Or just pick one. An ace or a king. 7 callers. still feel good?

Or how about JJ on a t-high flop. you bet out. all call. Then the ace or king hits on the turn?

now in a reasonable game with one or two callers, you raise with JJ or QQ and one overcard flops, you're still playable. Not in the super-loose game. (and especially in my 12-hander super-loose game) You're suddenly drawing to a 2-outer.

-Scott

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

You're suddenly drawing to a 2-outer.

So what's so hard about folding a 2-outer?

I know I'm over simplifying a bit, but obviously you should be far less likely to continue with JJ on an A high flop against 7 opponents than you would with 1 or 2 opponents. With that any callers you may have the odds to see the turn when you are behind, but it's OK to check and fold on the flop after raising preflop or check and call then fold on the turn.

Just because all of your loose opponents want to see the river every hand doesn't mean you have to also.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

How convenient! To justify your position with a picture-perfect flop for your hand...

The whole point of the post was to show how the fear of implied collusion is BS. I gave the field 15 outs which means they are a favorite to win the hand. It's hardly a picture-perfect flop in that kind of game. The fact that you didn't understand that really understates your problem.

How about make it jacks (or queens), same number of callers, with an Ace and King on the flop.

You check and fold. Possibly, you call one small bet to spike a set. If you can't play QQ on an Ace/King-high flop, then you've got huge problems in your game.

The problem of implied collusion isn't when overcards come on the flop. It's when playes hit their outs on the later streets.

Or how about JJ on a t-high flop. you bet out. all call. Then the ace or king hits on the turn?

This is no different than it coming on the flop. You need to identify the outs your opponents are likely to have. Aces are dangerous cards. Play appropriately.

Not in the super-loose game. (and especially in my 12-hander super-loose game) You're suddenly drawing to a 2-outer.

When you are drawing to two outs, you fold.

So, perhaps I need to revise my first post:

I always ask how a good player can't beat these games. The simple answer is to value bet a lot and fold when you're beat.

Your problem seems that you either don't know when you are beat or are paying off regularly when you are.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

So what's so hard about folding a 2-outer?

Who is saying it's hard to fold?

I thought I was discussing the difficulty of making money in an ultra-loose game. And when you make an investment in a hand thats no good, or course get out. but that still didn't make you any money.

-Scott

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

Who is saying it's hard to fold?

Well, you certainly implied it when you mocked Dynasty for picking an easy example (the QQ that a monkey could have played) then gave your counter example.

I thought I was discussing the difficulty of making money in an ultra-loose game.

So did I.

And when you make an investment in a hand thats no good, or course get out. but that still didn't make you any money.

Of course it did. Every correct decision you make at the poker table makes you money, just like every bad decision costs you money.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

Your problem seems that you either don't know when you are beat or are paying off regularly when you are.

Anything is possible. But I don't pay off much when I'm beat. Of course I do some times. but not frequently. And I'm great at folding on the flop when I miss. but I probably was in the hand for 2 bets. 2 bets, fold, 2-bets, fold, 2-bets, fold. Interspersed with the hands I make and get sucked out on. The problem is, by the river, you're beat far more often than in a sane game.

Like last night in my live 10-20 12-handed game. I'm on the button with AKo. nice.

7 callers to me, I call, blinds play. 10 to see the flop. flop is 8 high rainbow. MP bets, 7 call (including me). Turn is an ace, completing the rainbow. checked to me, I bet. 4 callers (one all-in). River is a T. checked to me, I bet all-in. 2 callers. winning hand is 8Ts for rivered 2 pair. $340 pot is pushed the other way.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

and you know what is beautiful in this game? When you get to play 22 UTG and the flop comes AQ2 and you bet and those 7 people call you, repeat on turn and river. You make so much in these games the 12% of the time you flop a set, and your multiway hands make so much money in these games, they are extremely beatable... but you get killed when you're card dead in these game.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

Just a couple of more points...

The problem is, by the river, you're beat far more often than in a sane game.

No one is denying that it takes a bigger hand on average to win in this kind of game. Our point is that being beaten more often is more than made up for by the much larger pots you'll win when you do win.

Like last night in my live 10-20 12-handed game. I'm on the button with AKo. nice.

7 callers to me, I call...

I'll save that debate for another day.

flop is 8 high rainbow. MP bets, 7 call (including me).

If you are convinced that one pair isn't going to win very often in this game (and you are correct, it won't win as often as it would in a tight game), why are you calling with just 6 outs to one pair in a 10 handed pot?

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I'm on the button with AKo. nice. 7 callers to me, I call

You are giving up way to much by not raising here. There was a discussion in the mid-stakes forum on this topic several months ago. I started it.

It's worth considering whether you should draw to overcards in this game. It's a close decision.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

It's worth considering whether you should draw to overcards in this game. It's a close decision.

....and it is probably a better decision to draw, if you did raise preflop, because you have much better odds. So if you are going to draw, raise, and if you aren't going to draw, then limping is probably better.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I think it's crucial not to let these loose games rob you of aggression. Go ahead and raise even if you're sure you'll get called as long as you're getting the right odds (as you were with your KQs preflop), you aren't giving up anything, just increasing your variance. Tend towards raising with anything you'd call with in many situations -- this can give you control (and possible free cards if needed later) and surprsingly can occaisonally induce very bad folds by opponents. Remember, many of these bad opponents don't really think about pot odds much. And if you're playing fairly tight, they may figure "uh oh the rock just raised on the flop and now he's betting the turn, better fold". Even one of those mistakes by an opponent that gives you a big pot is very a huge advantage.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I would have played your hand the exact same way. You didn't say if the players were aggressive but it seems like they are not. Sit back, wait for great cards, and jam the pot when you get them, and be aware of the implied odds for your draws.

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

I think it's crucial not to let these loose games rob you of aggression. Go ahead and raise even if you're sure you'll get called as long as you're getting the right odds

I agree.

But I was thinking about how the play of this hand in particular, where he didn't raise preflop, and once he does that, he isn't getting as good of odds on his draw on the flop.

He probably knows whether or not he is going to draw to overcards after the flop, and if he is, I think that it is even more important to raise preflop, because you will get better odds on your postflop play.

Re: You\'ll never be able to beat these games if...
 

LOL! Nice one Kong.

PokerPrince

Re: beating the ultra loose game
 

Raise that KQs up next time preflop. Big fat suited cards, especially connected ones, love those games.

PokerPrince