Is this a value bet?
 

Villain is loose/passive/weird. He just plays weird. I can't quite put my finger on it. He will pull tricky moves but in weird places. Usually he is just loose calling station but then sometimes he'll do something like bet 500 into a 12 pot. He's just weird. His numbers are 45/5 though. And not much postflop aggression either. What do you think? Is this a river value bet? I think it's close and I'm not sure.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($612)
UTG ($389)
Button ($326.04)
SB ($809.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, SB (poster) calls $6, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($24) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, Button folds, SB calls $8.

Turn: ($40) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $30</font>, SB calls $30.

River: ($100) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...?

(Please ignore the weird flop bet.)

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

Eh. I often check here to see what they have.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

Bet 50, fold to raise. I think if he was ahead of you, he'd probably have bet or raised by now on this draw-full board.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is....weird.

(Please ignore the weird flop bet.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Odd Villian, check behind, you only have TPGK. The Big Sexy is probably on his to-do list for the session.

And as for your flop bet...errr...looks perfectly normal to me. Ummm, maybe you can explain your reasoning for why you think it to be weird. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

Yes, 50

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

I check b/c I don't know what worse hand is in his range that will call you here. And if he bluff raises that sucks.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

I bet this

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

yeah, what everyone else said, bet

but what the hell was that flop bet? I need to hear your reasoning. Shania be damned?

edit: oh, seems not everyone agrees with a bet. I think a bet is good because of all of the pair+draw hands possible, who might not be too worried about a king on the turn

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say bet because I check here against all but the worst calling stations. If you guys are betting 50 and folding to a PSR+ I think its a bad bet. Decent players will raise a weak VB with hands you beat.

I'm open-minded as usual however.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

how often do you bet 1/3 pot on a draw heavy flop

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

verrrry thin.

only hand i see calling is JT.

looks like hes drawing to clubs/straight.

if hes loose enough to call on the end with J9,78/9,A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] etc. then maybe 1/3 pot?

im with xorbie though an prolly checking behind to see his hand.

paul

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say bet because I check here against all but the worst calling stations. If you guys are betting 50 and folding to a PSR+ I think its a bad bet. Decent players will raise a weak VB with hands you beat.

I'm open-minded as usual however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kdiding me? I've played every stakes from 1cent/2cent to 5/10NL and I've run into maybe 2 or 3 players TOTAL who are capable of checkraising the river on a bluff bcause the value bet looks weak.

If he c/r, we fold, it's easy.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

although yea im definitely betting 50 on this river, he is going to look you up with pair+draw, pair, a lot of the time

though he can easily put you on a K because you bet so little on flop / so much more on turn

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

With your read being that he's 'wierd', unless you can confidently nail him down on a hand here, I'd check behind. I'd love to say bet, but if I were in the hand I'd check behind and take a peak. There aren't many worse hands that are going to call you here so I don't see it being long term +EV.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

I think you can reraise this hand PF. Button doesn't need much to raise here so you might actually be ahead with KQ.

This hand looks kinda standard to me and when it comes to river, I think you don't gain much by betting. The only worse hands your opponent would call you with are something like a pair of tens with a busted draw or maybe jacks (weirdly played [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]) Against a loose opponent this is a clear bet, though. I'm guessing something like 33-50% of the pot would be proper.

Rozez

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say bet because I check here against all but the worst calling stations. If you guys are betting 50 and folding to a PSR+ I think its a bad bet. Decent players will raise a weak VB with hands you beat.

I'm open-minded as usual however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kdiding me? I've played every stakes from 1cent/2cent to 5/10NL and I've run into maybe 2 or 3 players TOTAL who are capable of checkraising the river on a bluff bcause the value bet looks weak.

If he c/r, we fold, it's easy.

[/ QUOTE ]THen you must not play very often. I regularly see aggressive players build a huge stack by doing this.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say bet because I check here against all but the worst calling stations. If you guys are betting 50 and folding to a PSR+ I think its a bad bet. Decent players will raise a weak VB with hands you beat.

I'm open-minded as usual however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kdiding me? I've played every stakes from 1cent/2cent to 5/10NL and I've run into maybe 2 or 3 players TOTAL who are capable of checkraising the river on a bluff bcause the value bet looks weak.

If he c/r, we fold, it's easy.

[/ QUOTE ]THen you must not play very often. I regularly see aggressive players build a huge stack by doing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Re: Is this a value bet?
 

I'd bet.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

Bet, but i like the 2/5's of the pot here. Any lower and he might think about a checkraise steal (kinda maybe if he's randomly wierd) but half the pot would probably look like you have a king. I find a lil less then half the pot in spots like this looks more like you missed your draw and are just trying to cheaply pick up the pot. If he's got a 9 with a decent kicker the extra 10$ might mean the diffrence between at crying call and a fold. But then again, i haven't played 6-max for a while [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

Rob, you suck. Quit messin' up the threads. Anyways, I bet 60 he check/raised to 150 and I insta-folded. I strongly considered checking and against most people I would. But I thought this dude could look me up with bottom pair or something since he was so loose. I'm still not sure. Anyways, my default is to check here against most people.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

A bet of 30-55 looks good, fold if raised. I think its to weak to just check here against an opponent that you think often will call you with any pair in this spot.

Even if he sometimes will c/r-bluff out you of the pot.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A bet of 30-55 looks good, fold if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hm, a weak 1/3 potsize bet against this guy is just asking for trouble, no?
When he calls with a worse hand, he makes a small error, if he gets fancy and bluffs you off your hand, because he senses weakness, you make a huge blunder. Not a good deal.

If I'm betting this river against him, which I wouldn't, I think I need to make it at least 1/2. Maybe 2/3 will even look more suspicious to him.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
(Please ignore the weird flop bet.)

[/ QUOTE ] What's with the flop bet?

I bet $70 or so on the river. He won't bluff-raise you, and he sounds like he can look you up with pretty much anything.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

Against sane players (when I have my usual sane image), I take my free showdown here. Worse hands fold, better hands don't, etc. But some people will call again with 33 so against them you have to bet. Pretty simple really. ;p

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

The flop bet was just something weird I felt like doing. Most of those guys were either fold or call guys. They very rarely raised and if they were going to fold to a pot bet, they would often fold even to a min-bet. So I thought there was some chance I would steal the whole pot and most of the time I felt like I would get a cheap shot at my two overs + gut shot.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet was just something weird I felt like doing. Most of those guys were either fold or call guys. They very rarely raised and if they were going to fold to a pot bet, they would often fold even to a min-bet. So I thought there was some chance I would steal the whole pot and most of the time I felt like I would get a cheap shot at my two overs + gut shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the type of thinking this forum could use more of.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet was just something weird I felt like doing. Most of those guys were either fold or call guys. They very rarely raised and if they were going to fold to a pot bet, they would often fold even to a min-bet. So I thought there was some chance I would steal the whole pot and most of the time I felt like I would get a cheap shot at my two overs + gut shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the thinking in general as I always advocate trying to take a pot down with a well timed, weird looking bet. However, I hate the thinking on that board. I don't see any scenario where you take it down on that flop unless you were against 33 and 55. Generally all you'll do is make a big pot with a bleah hand.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

What about the times they have 33 and 55? Or A2 and K4? Or 54 and 32? Or Q2 and Q3?

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you kdiding me? I've played every stakes from 1cent/2cent to 5/10NL and I've run into maybe 2 or 3 players TOTAL who are capable of checkraising the river on a bluff bcause the value bet looks weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know they aren't bluffing if you bet and fold to the raise on the river? just curious.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

i bet 40.you will get called alot and he will define his hand very well if he has you beat. dont worry about being c/r bluffed until you are regularly seeing it in your game.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

I haven't read the other responses but I don't see how this couldn't be a value bet. Don't be a pussy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ryan

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about the times they have 33 and 55? Or A2 and K4? Or 54 and 32? Or Q2 and Q3?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand. I'm just saying you have to look to find 2 combinations which no one has. If you take your average top 50% of hands, this flop hits almost all of them in some manner.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly considered checking and against most people I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this then.
Against most people you check behind.
But, against a weird tricky player, you bet.
You had a rock solid read. Why not use it.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

This guy was very loose. He would look me up with any pair here.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you kdiding me? I've played every stakes from 1cent/2cent to 5/10NL and I've run into maybe 2 or 3 players TOTAL who are capable of checkraising the river on a bluff bcause the value bet looks weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know they aren't bluffing if you bet and fold to the raise on the river? just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know a handful of people of bluff-raise the river with some frequency and I"m curious how you know this. in other words, bump.

Re: Is this a value bet?
 

You can't value bet as weakly against those people. But that's okay, because you'll make up for the value lost on your marginal hands by the extra value you'll gain on your monsters when they bluff check/raise into them. Also, depending on the action during the hand, it may not make sense for them to have a strong hand and you may be able to snap off a bluff check/raise even with a marginal holding. soah posted a hand a while ago which was like that. He got check/raised big on the river with one pair and the action just made no sense. I am and some other posters all pointed out as much and said that we would call. In the actual hand, he called and won. It was a few months ago, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to find, but it was definitely an interesting hand with some good discussion. It was from a live game, and he had posted several in a row from live action while he was in vegas or AC or something, if that helps someone dig it up...