64 suited
 

Hey guys, I'm trying to learn NL better, i have a decent grasp on the fundamentals but want to improve nuances such as extracting value and whatnot. The players in this hand are unknown to me.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG ($812)
UTG+1 ($331.72)
UTG+2 ($892)
MP1 ($2472.72)
MP2 ($2027)
Hero ($3978.32)
CO ($576)
Button ($2069)
SB ($1114.50)
BB ($887)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $78</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $78, CO calls $78, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($284) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $234</font>, Hero calls $234, CO folds.

Turn: ($752) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $567</font>, Hero calls $567.

River: ($1886) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero pushes...),

Is this good?

Re: 64 suited
 

I too enjoy 64 suited.

Looks OK. It's a bit weird b/c the missed draws you are representing may not be plausible - would naturally be much better if there was a missed flush draw.

I'm of the current belief that value bets are easily spotable b/c so few people know how to post-oak, so the push here is probably better.

I hope he called.


Glad you've sobered up.

Re: 64 suited
 

Lol, i figure on getting the drunk jokes for another few weeks. So anyway, a turn raise he would probably through him off an overpair given the action on this board right?

Re: 64 suited
 

Yeah - I couldn't resist - we've all been there.

I would raise the turn against some players - either really good ones who will think I'm just making a move, or really bad ones who can't get away from an overpair - my image at the table would be a key considration as always. Only you know who you are dealing with, of course.

There are times I'd raise this flop too - and there are times I'd bet 1/2 pot on the river - but in a vacuum I like your line OK.

Re: 64 suited
 

yeah, my read was overpair, and this opponent seemed solid. So i thought he might push the flop, but get away from the turn. I was tempted to bet like 700 on the river, but it seems pretty transparent. Not having put in enough hands in NL, i guess this is just the kind of think where i will need to feel these situations out and get more expierience in them.

Re: 64 suited
 

i like this push much better with a missed flush draw.

i would bet 3/4 pot here.

your line looks so strong, I would be shocked if you got a call from one pair here.

Re: 64 suited
 

i like 1/2 pot on the river to get a call from his KK/AA and possibly to setup cheaper bluffs in the future.

Re: 64 suited
 

why not raise the flop, calling ... I don't know, calling makes you seem like a Mudsuka' (in the words of B.A. Baracus)

Re: 64 suited
 

I think a value bet will get folded to, so a push here seems appropriate.

Re: 64 suited
 

hmm... is it good? u called about 4x bb with 6/4, almost full pot bet on flop with the draw, and hit the draw.

looks optimal to me

Re: 64 suited
 

So this is an automuck for you preflop? And you fold the flop with the open ended getting 2:1 on the immidiate call? Im dunno, i thought you need to do this stuff from time to time to mix it up.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
hmm... is it good? u called about 4x bb with 6/4, almost full pot bet on flop with the draw, and hit the draw.

looks optimal to me

[/ QUOTE ]

SHHHH.
nh ggb.

Re: 64 suited
 

anyone that is not a complete donkey is not calling this river bet at all with an overpair.

your push is only being called in one non-donkey circumstance:
that villain has been going off with TT, realized you flopped a set , and then tries to get retarded tricky with a river checkraise knowing you are going to value bet.

and that is much less likely than what is going to be the situation most of the time.

when you call his big turn bet he is going "GOD IM EFFING BEAT" and not going to be putting any more chips in the pot. i doubt even 1k more.

i think this may be a spot where i force my opponent into making a crying call when he knows he is crushed.

villain has ~1600 behind on the river.
if you push, and he calls 15% of the time you are gaining +$240 in value.

if you bet 600 and he calls 80% of the time you are gaining +$480
-----

the numbers are a bit skewed, but i think they illustrate my point nicely that you need to be making a smaller bet with a higher likely % to be called in this hand.

particularly with no reads. if the player has shown a propensity to make big (dumb) river calls then that can move the call frequency high enough to the point the big bet is preferable.

----

as fsu stated, the play is nicer if there is an obvious big draw out there that bricks out. because his calling % is going to be much higher than on this dry board.

-----

i bet small here, and laugh as villain cannot help but make the crying call and i know i just worked him for the most value possible.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone that is not a complete donkey is not calling this river bet at all with an overpair.

your push is only being called in one non-donkey circumstance:
that villain has been going off with TT, realized you flopped a set , and then tries to get retarded tricky with a river checkraise knowing you are going to value bet.

and that is much less likely than what is going to be the situation most of the time.

when you call his big turn bet he is going "GOD IM EFFING BEAT" and not going to be putting any more chips in the pot. i doubt even 1k more.

i think this may be a spot where i force my opponent into making a crying call when he knows he is crushed.

villain has ~1600 behind on the river.
if you push, and he calls 15% of the time you are gaining +$240 in value.

if you bet 600 and he calls 80% of the time you are gaining +$480
-----

the numbers are a bit skewed, but i think they illustrate my point nicely that you need to be making a smaller bet with a higher likely % to be called in this hand.

particularly with no reads. if the player has shown a propensity to make big (dumb) river calls then that can move the call frequency high enough to the point the big bet is preferable.

----

as fsu stated, the play is nicer if there is an obvious big draw out there that bricks out. because his calling % is going to be much higher than on this dry board.

-----

i bet small here, and laugh as villain cannot help but make the crying call and i know i just worked him for the most value possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

So ANYTIME that you check this river in villain's spot your folding? Where do you play? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


EDIT: you never bluff in ggb's spot w/ 67?

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like this push much better with a missed flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean that hero should push if he had a missed flush draw? Or that he should push with a straight if the flop had a flush draw that didnt get there? Thanks

Re: 64 suited
 

I fold preflop, call the flop, raise the turn a little, and shove the rest on the river.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost a clear mistake in the party 2k game. The amount of money you can win with hands like this if you have the right aggression postflop makes this an autocall for me, and sometimes I might raise it.

-Jason

Re: 64 suited
 

I am in El Diablo camp on every street here.
If I were in your spot on the river (failing to raise the turn) I would push as you did.

Best wishes

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost a clear mistake in the party 2k game. The amount of money you can win with hands like this if you have the right aggression postflop makes this an autocall for me, and sometimes I might raise it.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost a clear mistake in the party 2k game. The amount of money you can win with hands like this if you have the right aggression postflop makes this an autocall for me, and sometimes I might raise it.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree somewhat. In my experience you are thinking about the times you hit gorgeous flops, not the 15 times in a row you didn't hit even the smallest piece of the board.

However, that's not to say I don't call here.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost a clear mistake in the party 2k game. The amount of money you can win with hands like this if you have the right aggression postflop makes this an autocall for me, and sometimes I might raise it.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree somewhat. In my experience you are thinking about the times you hit gorgeous flops, not the 15 times in a row you didn't hit even the smallest piece of the board.

However, that's not to say I don't call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you are only playing this to flop trips or the nuts, then yes, its a fold pf.

Re: 64 suited
 

el d: as played without building a bigger pot on turn and decreasing the stacks, are you still pushing this river?

everyone else: what range are you putting villain on, and more importantly what range of calling % are you putting him on?

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like this push much better with a missed flush draw.

i would bet 3/4 pot here.

your line looks so strong, I would be shocked if you got a call from one pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

1886*.75 = 1415.

2472 - 78 - 234 - 567 = 1593.

I would put in that extra 180 every time and think not doing so is just setting money on fire.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
el d: as played without building a bigger pot on turn and decreasing the stacks, are you still pushing this river?

everyone else: what range are you putting villain on, and more importantly what range of calling % are you putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I'll push, other times I'll bet half pot. Depends on what's been going on lately.

Preflop...
 

Just to be clear, i didn't consider this to be a "standard" call preflop. It's one of those things i was doing to try and keep my opponents off balance, this hand definitly hits the muck some of the time. Additionally, i had been picking up a lot of pots playing draws aggressivly, and on the flop, i just felt confident that he had an overpair, not overcards, so it seemed like a bad spot to get aggressive.

Re: 64 suited
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like this push much better with a missed flush draw.

i would bet 3/4 pot here.

your line looks so strong, I would be shocked if you got a call from one pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

1886*.75 = 1415.

2472 - 78 - 234 - 567 = 1593.

I would put in that extra 180 every time and think not doing so is just setting money on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats twice you've caught me not paying attention posting while playing this morning.

i just added it up and agree a push is just fine here.