But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

Didn't expect to see that at showdown....

***** Hand History for Game 3020015003 *****
$200 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Friday, November 11, 15:59:01 EDT 2005
Table Table 65493 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: tricky1010 ( $338.64 )
Seat 2: intimadater9 ( $174.13 )
Seat 3: BorisBadnoff ( $277 )
Seat 4: ca2step ( $224.55 )
Seat 5: Ellicious ( $573.84 )
Seat 6: Ribbo ( $227.35 )
Seat 8: dfg11 ( $182.75 )
Seat 9: chessie_cat ( $466.44 )
Seat 10: ashleya ( $194.20 )
Seat 7: chillag ( $200 )
Ribbo posts small blind [$1].
>You have options at Table 64697 Table!.
chillag posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.
dfg11 folds.
chessie_cat calls [$2].
ashleya folds.
tricky1010 folds.
intimadater9 folds.
BorisBadnoff folds.
>You have options at Table 69016 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.
ca2step raises [$4].
Ellicious calls [$4].
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.
Ribbo raises [$19].
chillag folds.
>You have options at Table 64697 Table!.
chessie_cat calls [$18].
>You have options at Table 69082 (No DP) Table!.
ca2step calls [$16].
Ellicious calls [$16].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
>You have options at Table 69016 (No DP) Table!.
chessie_cat checks.
ca2step checks.
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].
>You have options at Table 69016 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.
chessie_cat folds.
ca2step calls [$65].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
Ribbo is all-In [$142.35]
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.
ca2step folds.
>You have options at Table 64697 Table!.
Ellicious calls [$142.35].
** Dealing River ** [ 6h ]
Ribbo shows [ Ac, As, 8s, 5c ] a pair of aces.
Ribbo shows 8,6,5,3,A for low.
Ellicious shows [ 2s, Qc, 6c, 3d ] two pairs, sixes and threes.
Ellicious wins $279.35 from the main pot with two pairs, sixes and threes.
Ribbo wins Lo ($279.35) from the main pot with 8,6,5,3,A.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

Just be happy that a 3, Q or non-club 4 didn't fall on the river.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

Is this the wave of future HH's to come?

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 64697 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 69016 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 64697 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 69082 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 69016 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
>You have options at Table 64699 (No DP) Table!.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

sucks how they stick that stuff in the hand history.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
...
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
...
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this OOP raise with AA5x followed by a check-call(pot) on a 2-high flop. I am very confused by this line.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
...
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
...
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this OOP raise with AA5x followed by a check-call(pot) on a 2-high flop. I am very confused by this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because i'm a better player than you? I get dealt double suited aces and you think simply because i'm out of position I shouldn't raise? Eh? That's a great flop for me, because it clearly should have missed the other players.
People love betting their button with nothing, because they fully expect to get a free card on the turn if someone calls. I will call if I think i'm ahead, and then if i think i'm still ahead on the turn will always bet into them if it means all-in .

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop! *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by FeliciaLee

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
...
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
...
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this OOP raise with AA5x followed by a check-call(pot) on a 2-high flop. I am very confused by this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because i'm a better player than you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite possibly, even probably. But that doesn't explain your line of thinking. If you don't care to share your line of thinking, then this thread was worthless. What a shocker.

EDIT: I see you have now gone back to expand upon your post above. Thank you.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop! *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by beset

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
...
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
...
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this OOP raise with AA5x followed by a check-call(pot) on a 2-high flop. I am very confused by this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because i'm a better player than you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite possibly, even probably. But that doesn't explain your line of thinking. If you don't care to share your line of thinking, then this thread was worthless. What a shocker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think there is only one way of playing a certain hand then you need to stop playing. My actions depend on plenty of factors, like my notes on other players, what they think I have etc. If I just bet out all my hands that I think i'm ahead on then that would be far too obvious, likewise if I check raise, then it gives the opportunity for people to get away from their terrible hands where they would otherwise put the rest of their chips in on the turn.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
...
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
...
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this OOP raise with AA5x followed by a check-call(pot) on a 2-high flop. I am very confused by this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because i'm a better player than you? I get dealt double suited aces and you think simply because i'm out of position I shouldn't raise? Eh? That's a great flop for me, because it clearly should have missed the other players.
People love betting their button with nothing, because they fully expect to get a free card on the turn if someone calls. I will call if I think i'm ahead, and then if i think i'm still ahead on the turn will always bet into them if it means all-in .

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think you shouldn't raise. I likely would have bet the pot on that flop. I think your line might be better (although if the flop hit somebody, it will cost you your whole stack to see since you are pushing the turn, whereas it only costs me my flop bet to see, although I risk winning less if I'm ahead). Just trying to figure out what you were thinking on it. Thanks.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think there is only one way of playing a certain hand then you need to stop playing. My actions depend on plenty of factors, like my notes on other players, what they think I have etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chill a bit. I didn't think there was one way to play it. You said it depends on a lot of factors. I agree and was just looking for you to expand upon the factors you considered when deciding on that line. For example, if you had a read that the button was the type to bet any flop checked to him (which it sounds like was the case), that is an important detail to leave out.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you think there is only one way of playing a certain hand then you need to stop playing. My actions depend on plenty of factors, like my notes on other players, what they think I have etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chill a bit. I didn't think there was one way to play it. You said it depends on a lot of factors. I agree and was just looking for you to expand upon the factors you considered when deciding on that line. For example, if you had a read that the button was the type to bet any flop checked to him (which it sounds like was the case), that is an important detail to leave out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most people on the button are like that. They look at their hand, notice that if certain cards hit they will win and somehow think this means they can "value bet" their gutshot no pair. They somehow think they will get a free card on the turn if they miss, plus they end up betting anyway because "its obvious" no one else has anything since they all checked. They then get check raised all in and "have value" to call since so much money is in, they miss and lose all their money with their no pair gutshot draw the whole time because "they had value". Give people the button and they turn into idiots.
On a similar note put people out of position and they turn into weak tight players who can't even raise double suited aces preflop! remind you of anyone?

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop! *DELETED*
 

It's time for RawBabies to grow up and become a RawMan!!

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop! *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by beset

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop! *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by beset

Re: Full Moon? PMS???
 

Gawd, what is wrong with everyone this week!?! Is there a full moon? Does everyone except me have PMS???

Stop with the abusive posts! Stop cursing at each other, stop name calling, stop posting explicit pics, just stop being such creeps to each other and give me a break.

I've always been so proud of this forum, but now you're acting like the other forums, like WPT and OOT. Do you really want that kind of moderator? Curse once and you're banned, call a pro a name and your out?

I've been way more tolerant than Mat would ever be, but you're going to have to start acting like adults or I will start treating you like children.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to Ribbo [ Ac As 8s 5c ]
...
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, Jd ]
Ribbo checks.
...
Ellicious bets [$65].
Ribbo calls [$65].

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this OOP raise with AA5x followed by a check-call(pot) on a 2-high flop. I am very confused by this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because i'm a better player than you? I get dealt double suited aces and you think simply because i'm out of position I shouldn't raise? Eh? That's a great flop for me, because it clearly should have missed the other players.
People love betting their button with nothing, because they fully expect to get a free card on the turn if someone calls. I will call if I think i'm ahead, and then if i think i'm still ahead on the turn will always bet into them if it means all-in .

[/ QUOTE ]

dont post if you want your [censored] stroked.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

Ribbo,

Yours was a zero content post, so why get upset when Wintermute replies in kind? Your OP was basically "OMG look at what this fish called me with!!!" Then when someone tries to ask a general strategy question about raising AAss OOP, you respond:

[ QUOTE ]
Because i'm a better player than you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You later went back to edit it after someone pulled you up.

[ QUOTE ]
It's no wonder why I created my own forum and charged a membership fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

You created the forum because you get rakeback(20-30% of their rake contributions over the life of a person's account) which is incredibly profitable for you. You won't accept cash payments for membership, they MUST sign up at a poker site using your bonus codes. So don't get high and mighty, it has nothing to do with keeping idiots out, and everything to do with your wallet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

Ribbo is basically a troll from what I have seen and adds nothing to this forum, certainly less than Paul Phillips added to the site.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

I do wonder what your point to this hand was Ribbo. I have seen ppl give you [censored] over things, for obvious reasons, but I actually like your dry sarcasm. Regardless, you did misplay this hand completely. Preflop it's moderately strong cus you're double suited, but your low sucks and high hand is confined to the flushes. Yes, Aces do hold up heads-up, but not often multi-way. On the flop you have CR*P! Aces only, with a possible backdoor flush. You're dead to any set, open-end or wrap, and almost every two pair. Why call a flop bet? To prove you have balls and not brains? It was a bad one, honestly. I do hope to get a very facetious response from you. I'll feel bad if I'm the only one who doesn't. Your Admirer

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

I want to apologize to the forum and especially Ribbo with regards to a couple of the posts I deleted in this thread.

I construed some of the statements contained in the posts as advertising a commercial service. I've reflected on them a bit and my perspective on the discussion was somewhat narrow. Regardless, I just want to reiterate for any posters who are operating poker web sites or forums in which they have a financial interest, please refrain from advertising your site or services either overtly or implicitly. I appreciate it.

In addition, it would be great if everyone could refrain sidestepping the profanity filter and try to keep it civil. Also, these forum should be primarily for strategy discussion though each forum is going to have its own off-topic/low-content posts. If you are going to make a post that doesn't aspire to provoke a serious strategy discussion, it would be preferable to include a (NC) or (LC) in the subject line. That's just my personal preference.

It's not my intent to stifle discussion here and I apologize for any perceived or actual over-moderating.

beset

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, you did misplay this hand completely. Yes, Aces do hold up heads-up, but not often multi-way. On the flop you have CR*P! Aces only, with a possible backdoor flush. You're dead to any set, open-end or wrap, and almost every two pair. Why call a flop bet? To prove you have balls and not brains? It was a bad one, honestly. I do hope to get a very facetious response from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong, but that's perfectly acceptable because the games you play in are different to mine.
I play PLO8 with people who do bluff, so do you, it's just that you have never ever called these people when they bet, so they get away with pushing you off the best hand time and time again.

I have absolutely no idea why you think a guy with 2 pair is dominating me (often they will be no better than 50/50 on the flop). Certainly they wont be better than 57/43 which gives more than correct pot odds to call. Considering I hold AA, the turn card helps me more if I can get heads up as it lowers the opponents chance of having me beaten for both high and low draw. The chance of anyone calling my pot bet preflop with JJ or TT is quite slim, add into this equation that it's the guy on the button betting (button players are notorious for betting any crap), add into this the chance of opponents folding when they should be calling the turn (because they really don't *have* to have me beat just because they make 1 bet. Plenty of people bet all manner of draws on the flop with position, and since they all missed the turn and the added low draw helps my hand, it looks a good place to shove and put pressure on them to fold.

Re: But I have the button! I have to bet the flop!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do wonder what your point to this hand was Ribbo. I have seen ppl give you [censored] over things, for obvious reasons, but I actually like your dry sarcasm. Regardless, you did misplay this hand completely. Preflop it's moderately strong cus you're double suited, but your low sucks and high hand is confined to the flushes. Yes, Aces do hold up heads-up, but not often multi-way. On the flop you have CR*P! Aces only, with a possible backdoor flush. You're dead to any set, open-end or wrap, and almost every two pair. Why call a flop bet? To prove you have balls and not brains? It was a bad one, honestly. I do hope to get a very facetious response from you. I'll feel bad if I'm the only one who doesn't. Your Admirer

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your advice in general is a bit weak tight. I was once very much like you are, and I am still pretty tight. However, I think you are giving WAY too conservative advice in general and you should perhaps look at some common situations in twodimes or some other odds calculator, so that you can better understand how equity is often split up in different situations. The main gripe I have with your advice is that it is not only too conservative (often incorrectly so IMHO), but that you give it with such an air of authority. I bet many solid players wouldn't mind the way Ribbo plays this hand one bit, but you state with absolute authority that he misplayed it. Not that you don't like his play for various reasons, but that his play is in fact incorrect.