A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

Question 1: I've been playing SH for the past couple of months. I've accumulated almost as much experience SH as Full. I've noticed the play is much worse SH than Full ring and I feel I have a much greater advantage. The difference however, is that my winrate is not even close to what it was full ring. I've also talked to a few friends and they also confirm the findings. This seems very counterintuitive b/c the play seems worse @ SH. Do other people find this to be true? Do any of you guys have significantly higher or lower (+/-.5bbs) win rates in SH or Full ring?

Question 2: MP2 open raises in a full ring game, I'm on the button and see AJo. Is this an easy 3 bet? Its analogous to saying, UTG raises and I'm OTB in a 6max game. To me thats an easy 3 bet. How bout KQo? I would routinely 3 bet in 6 max but what about full ring?

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

as far as question 2, it depends. On the norm, I'm three betting with a fair amount of hands when the MP2 opens. KQo and AJo are pretty easy three bets IMO, A8s+ a fair amount(where the dividing line is all depends on how much the opener opens and what they tend to open with). KJs sometimes, and most likely 66+

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

The variance in shorthanded play is way higher than in full ring. You are pushing much smaller edges and will vary pretty significantly from your true win rate.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

I've played over 100k hands full (2/4 and 3/6), over 150k hands 3/6 SH, around 40k hands 5/10 SH a handfull at 10/20 SH. My winrate at 3/6 SH was around .6 BB/100 hands higher than at 2/4 and 3/6 full, but these sample sizes are still way too small for that too mean anything. From my experience, I feel that the 5/10 SH players are significantly worse than the 3/6 full players and that my winrate should be significantly higher. Unfortunately games change faster than winrates converge, so I we will never know for sure.

As far as 3 betting AJo after an MP2 open in a full game: the only difference between this situation and a UTG open on a 6max table is the aggression of the opponents. In SH this is a 3-bet because an average opponent may have a PFR of around 15%. In full ring, an average PFR might be 8%. It really depends on the player who is opening. Likewise if a sane 42/7 opened from UTG in a 6max game, you would want to fold your AJo.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

The rate at which you pay your blinds will effect your winrate. Shorter games mean more blinds, which will bring down your BB/100, all other things equal.

-d

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

UTG full ring and UTG 6 handed are entirely different spots. It's how close you are to the blinds that matters, not the order you act in.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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UTG full ring and UTG 6 handed are entirely different spots. It's how close you are to the blinds that matters, not the order you act in.

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koo-koo kachoo.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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The rate at which you pay your blinds will effect your winrate. Shorter games mean more blinds, which will bring down your BB/100, all other things equal.

-d

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huh? everyone else is paying more often too...

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

In 100 hands at a full table, you pay 10 big blinds and 10 small blinds.

In 100 hands at a 6-max table, you pay 16.67 big blinds and 16.67 small blinds.

The more often you play those positions (which are -EV), the more negative effect it will have on your winrate. Unless i'm just missing something obvious.

-d

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 100 hands at a full table, you pay 10 big blinds and 10 small blinds.

In 100 hands at a 6-max table, you pay 16.67 big blinds and 16.67 small blinds.

The more often you play those positions (which are -EV), the more negative effect it will have on your winrate. Unless i'm just missing something obvious.

-d

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Yeah you're also in the MP2(UTG in 6M), MP3(MP in 6M), CO and OTB more too. By your logic you'd have to be a loser HU or 3 way because you're in the blinds practically always.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 100 hands at a full table, you pay 10 big blinds and 10 small blinds.

In 100 hands at a 6-max table, you pay 16.67 big blinds and 16.67 small blinds.

The more often you play those positions (which are -EV), the more negative effect it will have on your winrate. Unless i'm just missing something obvious.

-d

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by this logic, every single person who goes from full ring to 6 max should see a decline in winrate due to increased hands in the blinds... which obviously does not hold water.

what you are missing is that your equity in the blinds increases (i would imagine proportionally to the extra hands you are in the blinds - but dont quote me on that) in a 6max game.

that, or im really really stupid...

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 100 hands at a full table, you pay 10 big blinds and 10 small blinds.

In 100 hands at a 6-max table, you pay 16.67 big blinds and 16.67 small blinds.

The more often you play those positions (which are -EV), the more negative effect it will have on your winrate. Unless i'm just missing something obvious.

-d

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what you are missing is that you play the button, co and hijack more often which offsets your blinds.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 100 hands at a full table, you pay 10 big blinds and 10 small blinds.

In 100 hands at a 6-max table, you pay 16.67 big blinds and 16.67 small blinds.

The more often you play those positions (which are -EV), the more negative effect it will have on your winrate. Unless i'm just missing something obvious.

-d

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In the blinds, your EV is less negative short than full. Remember Ed Miller's article in the Magazine?

I don't think this is the reason.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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the more negative effect it will have on your winrate. Unless i'm just missing something obvious.

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Yes, one of the things you're missing is that most players lose about 1/2 as much in the blinds in a 6-max game as they do in a full game.

Another thing you're missing is that you get to always play in late position, where your winrate will be much higher than the early positions in a full game.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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Yes, one of the things you're missing is that most players lose about 1/2 as much in the blinds in a 6-max game as they do in a full game.


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right. in other words, your hands in the blinds have more equity in 6max because you're up against a fewer number of hands. in full, there are 4 more chances for premium hands to be dealt against your blind.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

The rake is much higher shorthanded. Half as many players are paying way more than half as much rake per hand. You need to collect a lot more mistakes shorthanded just to offset the extra cost to play.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

With regard to the second question:

I actually do not feel that it is an "easy" 3-bet from the button in six-max with either AJo or KQo. I suppose I usually 3-bet with AJ, but I find KQo to be a closer decision.

And now that you mention it, I think I might actually be more apt to 3-bet at full-ring, so long as I think I can get it HU. For at six-max, I believe people are much more skeptical of 3-betters and so it's less likely that you gain fold equity.

On the other hand, I hardly ever play full tables now, so perhaps that's wrong.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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Question 2: MP2 open raises in a full ring game, I'm on the button and see AJo. Is this an easy 3 bet? Its analogous to saying, UTG raises and I'm OTB in a 6max game. To me thats an easy 3 bet. How bout KQo? I would routinely 3 bet in 6 max but what about full ring?

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Its not just about position, its about the player in that position, as well as players left to act after you. Will they fold to a 3 bet. Even then you have to consider how the players play post flop, theres a much wider range of players at 6 max, especially if they are aggressive.
SO AJo and KQo are sometmes 3 betting hands. AJo easier of the 2 for sure, but a fold against some very tight raisers.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

I'm not so sure that's true. I recently checked some pt stats and here's teh results

23k hands of 3/6 (6 max) - 3.18% of the pot
30k hands of 3/6 (full) - 3.44% of the pot

As a side note, the 3/6 full hands were all played before the party rake hike so the numbers might be even more skewed.

So I'm still left wondering, why are our winrates lower @ 6 max than full? It would appear we have a greater skill advantage over the other players and yet our winrates are not as high. The paradox continues

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

You're missing the point. Though there is slightly less rake per pot, you win more pots SH than full ring, so you pay the rake more often.

Look at the rake paid stats on the first page of PokerTracker to see that you are paying more rake SH.

The rake is one reason your winrate is not as high as you think it should be. The other is variance. None of your winrates are necessarily that close to your true winrate.

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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Question 1: I've been playing SH for the past couple of months. I've accumulated almost as much experience SH as Full. I've noticed the play is much worse SH than Full ring and I feel I have a much greater advantage. The difference however, is that my winrate is not even close to what it was full ring. I've also talked to a few friends and they also confirm the findings. This seems very counterintuitive b/c the play seems worse @ SH. Do other people find this to be true? Do any of you guys have significantly higher or lower (+/-.5bbs) win rates in SH or Full ring?

Question 2: MP2 open raises in a full ring game, I'm on the button and see AJo. Is this an easy 3 bet? Its analogous to saying, UTG raises and I'm OTB in a 6max game. To me thats an easy 3 bet. How bout KQo? I would routinely 3 bet in 6 max but what about full ring?

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Q1: more variance, bigger swings, it sucks

Q2: I fold KQo and 66 and AJo to UTG 6max raisers

Re: A few Qs for you SH guys who used to play Full Ring
 

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[Q2: I fold KQo and 66 and AJo to UTG 6max raisers

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