Would YOU bet out here?
 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero...?

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

bets....

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

Betting is my standard move here. What am I missing?

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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Betting is my standard move here. What am I missing?

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Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I would bet out.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

Just to make this clear (mainly for newer posters), I don't even consider getting fancy until villian shows aggression. Even then it's totally read dependent. I make value bets until I think I can make more money doing something else. What that "someting else" is depends on the read.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

nah, i wouldnt bet.

reads change things

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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YOU bet out here

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Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

yes

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

It depends. What's your image like at that point? Are you precieved as tight post flop (i.e. only betting out when hitting the flop)? Or have you been caught bluffing recently. Maybe image doesn't matter against this opponent that's not really paying attention...

I think by default HU, I'd bet out to get bets in. Of course, if your opponent is laggy and shoots at the pot a lot, I'd either pop on the river w/ a c/r.

Passive calling station type I'd bet out all the way.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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nah, i wouldnt bet.

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Gee, all this time I thought you liked money.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

Very read dependant, but I think the best play is to bet out here, if I get raised, I'm check-raising the turn. Opp will probably be pissed enough to pay you on the river too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero...?

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Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I'd bet out here unless I had a solid read on MP2 as someone who will autobet and shoot at any pot when checked too.

Then I might try a check/call on flop with intention of Check/raising the turn to get an extra big bet out of him.

Mat

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

i like money. more often than not, the typical party 1/2 6maxer will bet this flop with nothing than call with nothing.

plus, if he checks through and we bet the turn, we will gain a bb or more if the turn improves his hand. we are basically never getting outdrawn here.

why bet in such a small pot with such a huge hand?

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

Depends on what you've been doing lately at the table, if you're picking up these pots a lot, if you're planning on picking up these pots a lot, etc.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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why bet in such a small pot with such a huge hand?

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cause you have 3 twos? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I'd bet this

I'd bet a 5 here, 43, and prob a few other hands as well

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I think betting is the play here. But then, there is always that guy MP who thinks any A is good anywhere and if a suited 3 comes with it - they piss their pants and call MP. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

So, just how stupid has villian been lately?

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I like to bet out. Overcards will call thinking your trying to steal the pot.

I just started 6max so maybe I should not say anything at all.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I usually bet out here as well.

I do think there is some merit to what miles is saying though.

The pot is tiny, this guy showed no agression PF. I think it might be worth it to offer him a free card and hope it improves him to 2nd best or hop that he bets into you.

I guess the question would be: Will this guy bet with more hands than he would call with?

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I bet it. Sometimes. Or not. Depending.

Often, though, you can get action on a hand like this because people expect you to slowplay. Many players will think, He doesn't have that...he'd have check-raised/slowplayed that, and raise. Couple this with the fact that many bluffers bluff at paired boards, throw in an aggressive player who thinks you're FOS, a flop bet, beat well, serve.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I did bet out, and he did fold. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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i like money. more often than not, the typical party 1/2 6maxer will bet this flop with nothing than call with nothing.

plus, if he checks through and we bet the turn, we will gain a bb or more if the turn improves his hand. we are basically never getting outdrawn here.

why bet in such a small pot with such a huge hand?

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It's hard to tell how often you are joking.

But I check also for all these reasons.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I might bet with just king-high here unless villain is tricky/aggressive.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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I might bet with just king-high here unless villain is tricky/aggressive.

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I think you may have misread the hand?
He has a little more than K high.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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I might bet with just king-high here unless villain is tricky/aggressive.

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I think you may have misread the hand?
He has a little more than K high.

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No, I didn't misread it. I'm implying that K-high would be enough to bet here, so why not bet a made hand as well? I'm donking a wide range of hands and flops HU against a limper.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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I'm implying that K-high would be enough to bet here, so why not bet a made hand as well? I'm donking a wide range of hands and flops HU against a limper.

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so your K-high is enough to bet here... okay. because it's probably the best hand right, but you'd rather just win the pot right now vs. his range. you just want to bet, have him fold, and move on. well now we have a nearly unbeatable hand. i know he is going to fold pretty often if i bet here, and i don't care about protecting my monster (yes, heads up, this is a monster).

why bet? because you also bet weaker hands? i don't think these concerns are worth the bets you lose when he folds a hand that would have put money into the pot had you given him a free card (or the bet that many people will just throw into the pot because you checked to them).

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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I'm implying that K-high would be enough to bet here, so why not bet a made hand as well? I'm donking a wide range of hands and flops HU against a limper.

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so your K-high is enough to bet here... okay. because it's probably the best hand right, but you'd rather just win the pot right now vs. his range. you just want to bet, have him fold, and move on. well now we have a nearly unbeatable hand. i know he is going to fold pretty often if i bet here, and i don't care about protecting my monster (yes, heads up, this is a monster).

why bet? because you also bet weaker hands? i don't think these concerns are worth the bets you lose when he folds a hand that would have put money into the pot had you given him a free card (or the bet that many people will just throw into the pot because you checked to them).

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I bet because OP provided no read. The default play with flopped trips is to go ahead and bet it unless I have reason to think otherwise. If villain is weak-tight, then give him a free card. You still won't make much off him (13% of the time he'll hit a pair if he has two overcards - if he puts in 2 BB when this happens, then you get a whopping .25 BB on average). Most players are too loose and will go ahead and peel here. I bet king-high for value and protection on the flop (he's *NOT* getting odds to chase with a hand like QJ or T8, but he'll probably call anyway - plus I don't mind him folding and picking up a small pot). I bet trips because I'm hoping he'll peel and I'm expecting him not to call a bet on the turn.

I wouldn't bet 8-high on this flop. He's not going to fold outright often enough and I lose a huge chunk of the bet I put in the pot (the dead money in the pot isn't lucrative enough to pull a total bluff).

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

obviously this is basically speculation on my part, but what i'm saying is that a huge part of what you're missing out on by betting is the entire bet that many players will commit to the pot simply because they are in position heads up and the other guy has checked.

every time we bet and someone folds a hand that would have bet if we had checked, chalk that up as a loss of one small bet (often more because they could hit a hand on the turn).

and back to the betting with A/K-high. are you ever happy if you get a flop call? the pot will be 4.5 small bets on the turn. are you going to throw about another half of the pot in with K-high? no, right? so if he had 6 outs on the flop, he often gets to see the river for 1 small bet. plus he may be calling you with A-high or a better K-high to begin with.

so, you bet a high card hand on these flops because your hand beats his limping range on this ragged flop. you do not want a call. if he calls you're basically stuck checking and folding for the rest of the hand unless you improve.

well i don't want him to fold, so i don't bet.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

a bet, c/r would be sexy here

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

I think it really depends on what your table image is and who is in the hand with you. If you have an image of being a TAG player I would check hoping someone else gives action. If your image is more of a LAG I would bet out. As for who is in the hand with you, if it's a bunch of tight players I would check. If it's a bunch of fish or tricky players I would bet out. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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a bet, c/r would be sexy here

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Without a read here, there's no guarantee villain would bet that flop. This is a pretty straight forward bet.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

Tricky. The problem is that we don't have position. Lets say we check the flop and he checks behind. The turn card falls. Do we bet out or do we try to get him to pick up the pot again?
But there are other points to consider here, mainly concerning metagame purposes. If your opponents on this table are observent, do you really want to check this hand? It could make it obvious that you check the flop when you're strong and bet out when you're weak. How long have you been at the table? How good are your opponents? What sort of reads do you have on them? What is your table image against this particular opponent? Has he caught you bluffing a few times recently or is he wary of you? I think you have to consider these factors before making a decision here.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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a bet, c/r would be sexy here

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Without a read here, there's no guarantee villain would bet that flop. This is a pretty straight forward bet.

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I agree

if you bet and he calls then you c/r the turn - hence the bet, c/r

I'm definitely not advocating a flop c/r here

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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and back to the betting with A/K-high. are you ever happy if you get a flop call? the pot will be 4.5 small bets on the turn. are you going to throw about another half of the pot in with K-high? no, right? so if he had 6 outs on the flop, he often gets to see the river for 1 small bet. plus he may be calling you with A-high or a better K-high to begin with.

so, you bet a high card hand on these flops because your hand beats his limping range on this ragged flop. you do not want a call. if he calls you're basically stuck checking and folding for the rest of the hand unless you improve.

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I'm ambivalent if he calls. Most likely, he's calling with a worse hand. If he has a worse hand, he's drawing to about 6 outs and I've got an overcard redraw.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1341299
pokenum -h ks 7h - td 9d -- 2c 2d 5s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5s 2c 2d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks 7h 694 70.10 276 27.88 20 2.02 0.711
Td 9d 276 27.88 694 70.10 20 2.02 0.289

So if he calls, I don't mind because I just made money. If he folds, that's okay because I win the pot.

I'm autobetting the turn with king-high and expecting the unknown villain to fold most of the time. If he calls again, I assume he paired and check-fold the river if I don't pair my king. I don't mind putting the money in the pot, either. It doesn't matter that it's a half-pot bet size. Why? Because I believe I'm getting much better than 2:1 on him folding the turn.

Again, having reads would change everything. This is the default play.

So going back to the trips hand, I'm betting the flop because I expect him to call the flop bet and because waiting until the turn to bet doesn't often make more money for me.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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why bet in such a small pot with such a huge hand?

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Because it's hard for villian to call your bets if you don't make them.

I thinking you might be overthinking this hand. If I have a good hand I want money in the pot. If villian does something that makes me think I can get more money in the middle doing something besides betting, then I might take another line. Until then, I don't see any other way to play it besides making value bets.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

VERY player dependant for me. I tend to lead as I lead most heads up and 3 handed pots with any part of the board, even a gut-shot at times. If my opponent is passive but tends to call I like to just bet it all the way.

If I have a reasonably aggressive player I often lead the flop, pray for a call and then check!! the turn for a check-raise. This has worked very well for me at 6 Max and putting in a little delay before the raise can get you 3 bet by the right opponent! Even when they just call the raise, which they usually do, they will very often call the river bet with as little as Queen high just cause they think you are at it.

I like this line cause it looks like you took a shot at the flop but then bottled the turn and most take that as an invitation to bet.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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why bet in such a small pot with such a huge hand?

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Because it's hard for villian to call your bets if you don't make them.

I thinking you might be overthinking this hand. If I have a good hand I want money in the pot. If villian does something that makes me think I can get more money in the middle doing something besides betting, then I might take another line. Until then, I don't see any other way to play it besides making value bets.

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summary:

in my experience, players at this limit will bet very often when checked to heads up. if you bet, you do not give them the chance to do this. also, if the flop checks through and you bet the turn, the turn card may improve their hand. if they would have folded to a flop bet, you now gain at least two big bets because you checked.

overthinking?

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

It might boil down to the fact that I disagree with yr assessment of what a "typical player" at this limit does here. I don't really think in terms of typical player here, as these clowns are really strange and unpredictable. Many like to call bets, and raise if they catch a card that improves their hand. Some will actually raise this flop or even raise the turn UI trying to represent trips. I have not found much rhyme or reason to their play -- by my experience an unknown is prone to do random things with just about any hand. This includes everything from calling down and raising the river with a flopped full house to going to war on every street with a mid pocket pair.

Re: Would YOU bet out here?
 

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also, if the flop checks through and you bet the turn, the turn card may improve their hand. if they would have folded to a flop bet, you now gain at least two big bets because you checked.

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I've pointed out elsewhere in this thread (I don't know if you've read the whole thing... I know I haven't) that if you get 2 BB every time villain pairs on the turn, on average you net a whopping .25 BB (6/44 = 13% - which isn't very often). If you get 3 BB, you net .38 BB on average. So if you *KNOW* he's going to fold to a flop bet, then give him the free card.