a loopy logy little hand
 

Five-handed $80-160 at Bay101. I was under the gun. I raised. The cutoff folded. The button called. The small blind folded. The big blind called. Three players.

The flop was 9 9 9.

The big blind checked, I checked, and the button checked.

The turn was a 5.

The big blind bet, I called, and the button called.

The river was a 4.

The big blind checked, I bet, the button called, and the big blind folded.

I showed K K.

The button showed K 9.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

um..ok, apparently the button is an [censored]

but why wouldnt you bet the flop?

edit: they censor [censored]?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Seeing the button play this hand puts the whole debate about the merits of Tommy's play in perspective for me. Should he check KK on the flop? Who cares?

Game selection is where it's at, the rest is just details.

-eric

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

The button showed K 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

sometimes that King-9 is a BAD MUTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

tommy could you please explain your flop check?

i like betting because any A or pocket pair will almost always at least call that flop having called preflop shorthanded. why did you decide to check?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
tommy could you please explain your flop check?

i like betting because any A or pocket pair will almost always at least call that flop having called preflop shorthanded. why did you decide to check?

[/ QUOTE ]

That and you also make the pot bigger so they get tempted to again call on the turn with 33, AJ or whatever. I dont get it either. Do you do this because you like to check behind a lot of flop that you miss, so its more of a metagame thing to keeps you from being robbed on 4th in later hands?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

I must suck at poker, since I don't get this action at all.

Of the 3 in the pot, I play like the guy in the BB. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] BDH [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Equally silly hand:

HU online. I get dealt A3o and raise. Uber-LAG reraises.

Flop comes A77.

I check, villain checks.
Turn is blank. I check, he checks.
River is blank. I check, villain checks.

Villain shows 77 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

"tommy could you please explain your flop check?"

I was sedating my opponents.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
"tommy could you please explain your flop check?"

I was sedating my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is cool and all Tommy, but i really think a bet works better here, especially when a 55-77 type hand gets frisky and puts in too many bets. Maybe you had a specific read to the contrary, but i definitly think betting here makes more in the long run.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

"I was sedating my opponents."

i need a little more than that to really understand what still appears to me be by far a much less optimal choice than betting. can you give us more please?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

I had never answered your posts cause they're all from live play that i don't play much and so i can't make good choices too often there. But i can't sigh for now.

My opinion is - your line is terrible here regardless known range of opponents who play TH, regardless meta-game purposes, and regardless differences between live or online play.

Bet the [censored] flop.

In online play i would routinely 3-bet this flop and if capped - quite probably c/r non A turn if 1 of them folded to a bet on turn. If no one folds flop or i face 2 bets to call cold i consider occasional calling to raise/c-r turn or rarely river if HU on turn.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Rus, you are trying to explain how to play "good" poker.. That isn't what Tommy Does. Frankly, unless these posts are complete joke, i feel like flying out to play in this game b/c of Tommy.. just to see if these posts are actually how he plays, etc.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rus, you are trying to explain how to play "good" poker.. That isn't what Tommy Does. Frankly, unless these posts are complete joke, i feel like flying out to play in this game b/c of Tommy.. just to see if these posts are actually how he plays, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't you [censored] start again.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Looks to me like they're already sedated. Time to wake them up a little, no?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Let me take a stab at your thoughts:

Flop: This is not really a scary board for any hands, and
although no1 is going to fold a pocket pair, and possibly
not any two cards, you decided to play your pocket kings as
if you had overcards. This allows people to give you more
action on later streets by putting doubt into their minds
as to the strength of your hand. It might induce
excessive action from somebody who hits a jack or something
on the turn. It also allows for a nice checkraise if the
button decides to bet. Your kings are only vulnerable to
one overcard and there are no other draws. Since people
are going to call with an ace high hand anyway, you cannot
protect against an ace falling on the turn by betting, you
can only valuebet against these hands at the time. If the
ace does hit, you likely can get away from your hand
cheaply depending on the action, but your opponents have
an equally likely chance of pairing their kicker and giving
you some action on that. The small bets lost from hands that
would have called drawing slim to dead is perhaps made up
from all of this.

Turn: That was pretty much a blank, no reason to scare
everybody off now with a raise while they are drawing slim
to dead to hands that will pay you off if they hit
something. Also, you get to threebet and trap BB if button
decides to raise here. This play is also consistent with
the overcards deception.

River: Okay, clearly we bet here and hope somebody calls.
It should be an easy call with any pair, as your opponents
should still be suspicious that you have overcards. Button
must have figured that it was more likely that BB would
overcall than it was that you would pay him off if he
raised. Either that or he was afraid you had 99.

So how far off was I?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Forgot to add this to my flop analysis: if you bet you
also run the risk of somebody folding a hand without an
ace in it, which would be a terrible thing for you.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

are you sure you weren't the button in this hand?

I have to imagine everyone else raises the river with quads

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

There still must be a typo, how does he just call on the end with the pure nuts?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
There still must be a typo, how does he just call on the end with the pure nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

hoping for an overcall

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

"can you give us more please?"

See both of Deorums posts. I could not have written or thought it better. There's more of course as to why I or you make any betting decision, stuff that has to do with these particular opponents at the time and the unfolding patterns and tendencies we were creating and reacting to at the table. But that stuff is always there all the time at shorthanded B&M, right? Don't you think it's kind of fun to just look at the betting of a hand sometimes and enjoy it for its unusualness or awkwardness or unexplainableness? Do you really think the answer to everything lies is believing that there is an answer to everything?

The other night on TV I saw Howard Lederer say something to the effect of "Make gaps between what you are doing and what they think you are doing." That's all I'm doing, mike, making gaps.

Tommy

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

he flat called the river with the nuts? for OVERCALLS? omg

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Equally silly hand:

HU online. I get dealt A3o and raise. Uber-LAG reraises.

Flop comes A77.

I check, villain checks.
Turn is blank. I check, he checks.
River is blank. I check, villain checks.

Villain shows 77 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

He wanted to show his flopped quads to everyone, and didn't know how to click the insta-muck button off.

Tommy's opponent wanted to show the hand as well and get the "nice hand" comments. Me, I prefer getting Benjamin Franklin's approval.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

"the unfolding patterns"

talk about double meaning!

"Do you really think the answer to everything lies is believing that there is an answer to everything?"

no. but i think that the more i get you to give me more than a couple sentences, the more my mind expands.

"Make gaps between what you are doing and what they think you are doing." That's all I'm doing, mike, making gaps."

very very interesting stuff, ill think about it and talk to justin and gabe and damon about this hand. thanks for sharing!

mike

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

"'Make gaps between what you are doing and what they think you are doing.' That's all I'm doing, mike, making gaps."

that's almost poetic... whether or not the play of this hand was totally optimal, i think it's obvious that you appreciate poker as an art more than pretty much anyone else on these boards.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
"tommy could you please explain your flop check?"

I was sedating my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button is one of these retards that always slowplays big hands and always gets aggressive with nothing isn't he? If so, nice play.

Edit to add. Oh yeah, he was probably trying to get tricky on the river by checkraising somehow.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
"tommy could you please explain your flop check?"

I was sedating my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, the button is even better at it than you are. He masterfully only called in several spots where clearly a bet or a raise would have been a better choice. You had no idea he'd turn over the nuts, right? Damn, he's in your head. Now you don't know how to play against him.

Gotta work on that game selection Tommy. You don't want to play with this one.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
eric

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

Tommy, what's your plan if the button raises the river? Do you put him squarely on quads and fold? Or do you pay him off?

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy, what's your plan if the button raises the river? Do you put him squarely on quads and fold? Or do you pay him off?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure folding there most of the time would be insane.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

fwiw, i was at this game and i too was equally surprised at the river, but my only thoughts on button's play was that he is a really nice guy who did a lot of chipping back and forth with the other players at that table and he also seemed to really respect tommy (not necessarily in the poker sense but in the "he's a really nice guy" sense) and i'm sure he justified his play to himself as to wanting an overcall rather than not raising his friend on the river.

for example, if it was me betting on the river rather than tommy, he would have rasied me for sure.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

"i'm sure he [the button] justified his play to himself as to wanting an overcall rather than not raising his friend on the river."

FWIW, there’s no not raising the river with the nuts between me and anyone. He justified his play verbally, right after the hand. He looked at me and said, "I really thought you had absolutely nothing." In that case, he played the hand perfectly in my opinion, in two ways, first by making a good read (he was wrong this time, but hey, that's the gappage thing) and second by sticking with his ongoing reads, right or wrong, in how he played the hand. The more I think about this hand, the more I see it as a well-choreographed dance performed flawlessly by everyone. But it's just as easy and understandable for someone else to think that everyone played the hand poorly at almost every opportunity. Funny game, poker.

Tommy

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

i would check the river and give the guy with quads a chance to check behind.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

i know he verbalized it and all, but it's hard to see him thinking you really had nothing considering you called the turn bet and bet the river. i don't think you had a high bluffing frequency in your actions since you checked so much in this game, so if i were in his spot i'd have to assume maybe you picked up a pair or something on the turn or river.

if anything its clear the bb has nothing after he makes his stab on the turn and gives up on the river. the button hoping he'd overcall in this spot is wishful thinking and he should raise your river bet because he's either going to get all the bets in he was going to get anyways if you either call or fold to it because bb is never going to call imo, that is unless i seriously overestimated button's playing abilities.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
The more I think about this hand, the more I see it as a well-choreographed dance performed flawlessly by everyone. But it's just as easy and understandable for someone else to think that everyone played the hand poorly at almost every opportunity. Funny game, poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very very awesome post.

I definitely happen to be one of those people that thinks this hand was botched by at least two people, maybe that helps me appreciate this quote even more.

Re: a loopy logy little hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: This is not really a scary board for any hands, and
although no1 is going to fold a pocket pair, and possibly
not any two cards, you decided to play your pocket kings as
if you had overcards. This allows people to give you more
action on later streets by putting doubt into their minds
as to the strength of your hand. It might induce
excessive action from somebody who hits a jack or something
on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite captain quads hand reading, to me that flop check reeks to high heaven of "Hey, I got aces or a 9". If you put in any raises at all after this flop line, you can go ahead and turn your hand over. Most high cards are going to peel one with you, pairs will go apeshit on the flop and everyone expects the raiser to bet this flop 99% of the time 3 to the flop. You have to fire with low connectors to try and steal, and you have to protect AQ because it is likley the best hand. Logically the only hand that doesn't bet this 3 handed are AA, a 9 or maybe KK since dry aces will peel anyways on the flop and that is the only worry. Bet the flop, get the action started and disguise your hand.