Seeing a card
 

Home game, tournament style, $100 buy-in, winner take all. After 1 tourney was completed another one started. The player to my right (villain) is LAG and very dramatic. I quickly learned that when the cards were dealt he would look at them immediately and start his act. Whenever he got a good card, he would frown, sigh, rub his brow, essentially trying to make everyone believe that he didn't have anything. So I'm watching him closely whenever the cards are dealt. During one hand the dealer (who is sitting across from me)tosses the first card and as the card sails through the air I catch a very brief glimpse of the distinct pattern of the Ace of spades. The card lands on the table face down, the player picks it up and starts his hollywood acting which confirms to me that the card was indeed an ace. I'm dealt A9o. As usual, he raises up his small blind to 4x bb. I call. The flop comes down Axx. He leads out with another 4xbb. I call. The turn is a 9. He makes another 4x bet and I raise. Folds all around to villain. He goes all in, I call. River is a blank. He has AQ. I win the pot with 2 pair and elminate him from the tourney. Thoughts?

Re: Seeing a card
 

When a card flashes you should announce that the card has flashed so that the card can be treated as an exposed card.

Re: Seeing a card
 

While you did get a perfect read on him, and were able to confirm it, and anyone else at the table may have had the same read....you also had information that the rest of the table did not have. You KNEW he had an ace when others may have just suspected it. To continue with this knowledge is IMO unethical.

Re: Seeing a card
 

You should have announced that you saw the card and made sure the dealer(s) were more carelful when dealing cards from that point forward.

There is no need to send cards "sailing" through the air, just hold the deck low and slide the cards across the table.

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]
When a card flashes you should announce that the card has flashed...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have announced that you saw the card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Question: Is this an actual rule or is this just something under the category of "etiquette?"

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a card flashes you should announce that the card has flashed...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have announced that you saw the card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Question: Is this an actual rule or is this just something under the category of "etiquette?"

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a rule that a card exposed on the deal is shown to all and replaced (unless the circumstances generate a misdeal) The card was exposed. Therefore it should be shown to all and replaced. That isn't etiquette that is the rule.

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a card flashes you should announce that the card has flashed...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have announced that you saw the card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Question: Is this an actual rule or is this just something under the category of "etiquette?"

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a rule that a card exposed on the deal is shown to all and replaced (unless the circumstances generate a misdeal) The card was exposed. Therefore it should be shown to all and replaced. That isn't etiquette that is the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted for truth.

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a card flashes you should announce that the card has flashed...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have announced that you saw the card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Question: Is this an actual rule or is this just something under the category of "etiquette?"

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

The card was exposed. Therefore it should be shown to all and replaced. That isn't etiquette that is the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood and agreed 100%.

However, in this instance, the card was flashed to one player unbeknownst to everyone else at the table. This presents a dilemma to the player with this “illicit” knowledge. Is this player “on his honor” to disclose this information? Obviously, this is the only way in which this situation could be remedied.

So it is, after all, a question of etiquette.

As you and I well know, however, while the angelic among us would indeed feel honor-bound to disclose this information (I include myself, of course, in this camp) others would be in the Jack Straus “Bust-Their-Own-Grandmother” camp and would keep it to themselves. And—perhaps rightly so—believe they are in the right.

How then is this dilemma resolved for the “honest” player? Is it fair that he voluntarily discloses this information repudiating any unfair advantage over others, while others exploit their unfair advantage over him when the roles are reversed? Again, how is this to be resolved?

Your, or any other’s thoughts welcome.

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a card flashes you should announce that the card has flashed...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have announced that you saw the card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Question: Is this an actual rule or is this just something under the category of "etiquette?"

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

The card was exposed. Therefore it should be shown to all and replaced. That isn't etiquette that is the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood and agreed 100%.

However, in this instance, the card was flashed to one player unbeknownst to everyone else at the table. This presents a dilemma to the player with this “illicit” knowledge. Is this player “on his honor” to disclose this information? Obviously, this is the only way in which this situation could be remedied.

So it is, after all, a question of etiquette.

As you and I well know, however, while the angelic among us would indeed feel honor-bound to disclose this information (I include myself, of course, in this camp) others would be in the Jack Straus “Bust-Their-Own-Grandmother” camp and would keep it to themselves. And—perhaps rightly so—believe they are in the right.

How then is this dilemma resolved for the “honest” player? Is it fair that he voluntarily discloses this information repudiating any unfair advantage over others, while others exploit their unfair advantage over him when the roles are reversed? Again, how is this to be resolved?

Your, or any other’s thoughts welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't change from the issue of being a rule to being an issue of etiquette just because you present a situation where no one else is aware that the rule is being broken. If you commit a crime in private it is still a crime, not just a breach of protocal.

The question of whether one acts honestly when they can get away with acting dishonestly is a matter of personal integrity. Of course your decision there is probably indicative of the other types of decisions you make in your life, and eventually people will catch on and treat you accordingly.

Re: Seeing a card
 

you should let everyone know the card was exposed, the whole table gets to see it, and it becomes the burn card. the player is then dealt the burn card to complete his hand.

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]


No, it doesn't change from the issue of being a rule to being an issue of etiquette just because you present a situation where no one else is aware that the rule is being broken. If you commit a crime in private it is still a crime, not just a breach of protocal.

The question of whether one acts honestly when they can get away with acting dishonestly is a matter of personal integrity. Of course your decision there is probably indicative of the other types of decisions you make in your life, and eventually people will catch on and treat you accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss my point. I am not saying one isn’t obligated to be honest just because one can get away with it. I am bringing up this dilemma because I have found myself in the original poster’s situation and, while I, in good faith, voluntarily disclosed this information, I felt that others were not as forthright with me when the roles were reversed.

The honest player is doubly punished. First, because unscrupulous others will have an unfair advantage over him; second, because the honest player cannot himself engage in the unfair behavior as retaliation.

So, without being lectured again about the generalities of pursuing honesty in one’s life,

A) How do you specifically propose to enforce a rule which can never be enforced except by virtue of others’ honor?

B) How can something be a “Rule” in the first place if it can never be enforced, and there are barely any consequences for anyone violating it?

Answer: Yes, I agree, it should still be a “rule,” the enforcement of which, however, is ultimately voluntary, and entirely dependent on the mutual agreement of the players involved to honor. But it can never be enforced and, back to my original point, that is the essence of etiquette—a code of acceptable behavior everyone is admonished to follow because it is in the best interest of the game

Re: Seeing a card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


No, it doesn't change from the issue of being a rule to being an issue of etiquette just because you present a situation where no one else is aware that the rule is being broken. If you commit a crime in private it is still a crime, not just a breach of protocal.

The question of whether one acts honestly when they can get away with acting dishonestly is a matter of personal integrity. Of course your decision there is probably indicative of the other types of decisions you make in your life, and eventually people will catch on and treat you accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss my point. I am not saying one isn’t obligated to be honest just because one can get away with it. I am bringing up this dilemma because I have found myself in the original poster’s situation and, while I, in good faith, voluntarily disclosed this information, I felt that others were not as forthright with me when the roles were reversed.

The honest player is doubly punished. First, because unscrupulous others will have an unfair advantage over him; second, because the honest player cannot himself engage in the unfair behavior as retaliation.

So, without being lectured again about the generalities of pursuing honesty in one’s life,

A) How do you specifically propose to enforce a rule which can never be enforced except by virtue of others’ honor?

B) How can something be a “Rule” in the first place if it can never be enforced, and there are barely any consequences for anyone violating it?

Answer: Yes, I agree, it should still be a “rule,” the enforcement of which, however, is ultimately voluntary, and entirely dependent on the mutual agreement of the players involved to honor. But it can never be enforced and, back to my original point, that is the essence of etiquette—a code of acceptable behavior everyone is admonished to follow because it is in the best interest of the game

[/ QUOTE ]

To begin with, the rule that a card which is exposed will be shown to all the players and replaced (except when a misdeal results) is an enforceable rule and it is enforced everyday.

You present the issue of that it may occur that only one player becomes aware of the fact that the card is exposed and then ask the question "How do you specifically propose to enforce a rule which can never be enforced except by virtue of others’ honor?" As noted before the rule can and is enforced because the simple fact is that most times that a card is exposed it is not only exposed to one player. Obviously by definition if only one person know sthat the card has been exposed no other person knows that the card has been exposed and therefore no one else can "enforce" the rule. SO WHAT?

Then you ask

B) How can something be a “Rule” in the first place if it can never be enforced, and there are barely any consequences for anyone violating it?

So a guy robs a bank and gets away without getting caught, therefore it can't be a rule taht you are not allowed to rob banks. If I mark the deck in a way that only I can detect is that not a breach of the rules of poker. I can't get caught because only I can detect the markings. Perhaps its just poor ettiquette.

The fact that you may get away with cheating doesn't change the fact that it is cheating.

You can insist that its just a matter of ettiquette all you want, but the bottom line is that it is a rule of poker. If you want to argue etiquette issues here is one for you: Is it poor ettiquette to chew with your mouth open when you are dining alone?

Re: Seeing a card
 

Thoughts? You cheated. You knowingly saw one of his cards, and kept playing as if nothing happened. Thats nothing more than cheating imo.

Re: Seeing a card
 

Your dealer is flashing cards. He will flash again and again. Your cards may be the one flashed next time. Would you not want the other players to allert you to the sloppy deal?

Reporting this IMO gives you advantages over taking that pot. One is that winning the pot is not assured just because you saw a flash. Two by alerting the table you take the A out of play and your hand becomes stronger. Three you have confirmed you read on this player so his act is now showing you both his cards in the future. Four he may go on tilt (how would you like giving up an ace). Fifth your table image is now of an honest player that would never take advantage of the other players.