Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

Anyone have a very close estimate of the action including player's stacks sizes before the hand, blinds, preflop raise, pot size on the flop, flop bet by Raymer, turn pot size and bet by Raymer, re-raise by Kanter and how much it was for Kanter to call Greg's all in compared to the pot.

The cardplayer report is limited but I believe the ESPN episode picked most of this up. Curious on the pot odds of the situation:

"Hand 20 - Ayhan Alsancak has the button in seat 5, Raymer raises, and Kanter calls. The flop comes 6c-5d-3h, and there's a bet and a call. The turn card is the 7h, Kanter bets $600,000, and the two players are quickly all in. Raymer shows pocket kings (Kd-Kh), and Kanter has Qh-Jh. Kanter has a flush draw, and needs to catch a heart to win the pot. The river card is the 2h, and Kanter makes his flush to double up through Greg Raymer.

Kanter's supporters are ecstatic, and cheering loudly, but the rest of the room is nearly silent as crowd-favorite Greg Raymer loses a huge pot. You can distinctly hear the cheers, but the silence in the rest of the room is almost overpowering. Aaron Kanter now has somewhere between $3.5 and $4 million, while Greg Raymer is crippled down to about $400,000. "

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

Yeah, like how much was Raymer's bet after the flop? Kanter called with nothing but overcards and a backdoor flush draw, something you're more likely to see in a fishy 4/8 limit game.

Then he compounds the error by raising the turn which ended up charging himself all his chips to make his draw. But he sucked out, so no harm no foul. Raymer's comment was pretty good. "You tried to give me all your chips."

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

I'm kind of suprised that Raymer didn't lose it that hand. I'm impressed.

Think about how Phil H. would react in the same situation.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

I would have raised the turn too. Raymer should have folded to the turn bet. He has one pair on a dangerous board. If I was Raymer, I would have pushed pf or on the flop.

I think he played incorrectly post-flop. If he was going to be in it for long haul, he should have pushed the flop. If Raymer was scared of ace coming on turn or river, AT-AK has only 3 outs and will likely fold to a flop push.

The more I review his play, the more it doesn't make sense.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

I have total respect for Raymer for reacting like that, but you gotta think in his head he's thinking, "this guy Kanter is an absolute idiot for putting all his chips in with that hand". Considering the hand, if Raymer did react differently, you cannot fault him.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

So you are discounting Gregs read?

Pushing it pre-flop would be crazy. Pushing it on the flop would be crazy. Greg had a pretty big stack and overbetting pre-flop or the flop would only get him called by a better hand.

One can argue that he underbet the flop or the turn, but that is Greg's way of playing. He is not going to pot bet all the time. He would rather underbet which allows him to do it for a lot more than just his good hands.

If you were Greg, you wouldn't have won in 2004 or made it to 25th in 2005.

Ken

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised the turn too. Raymer should have folded to the turn bet. He has one pair on a dangerous board. If I was Raymer, I would have pushed pf or on the flop.

I think he played incorrectly post-flop. If he was going to be in it for long haul, he should have pushed the flop. If Raymer was scared of ace coming on turn or river, AT-AK has only 3 outs and will likely fold to a flop push.

The more I review his play, the more it doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

So after seeing one hand in a heavily edited vaccum, you think you can analyze a play better than somebody who was there?

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised the turn too. Raymer should have folded to the turn bet. He has one pair on a dangerous board. If I was Raymer, I would have pushed pf or on the flop.

I think he played incorrectly post-flop. If he was going to be in it for long haul, he should have pushed the flop. If Raymer was scared of ace coming on turn or river, AT-AK has only 3 outs and will likely fold to a flop push.

The more I review his play, the more it doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raymer, should fold the turn? What was so dangerous about the board, the flush draw? I think Raymer put Kanter on a smaller pp. And Raymer thought Kanter was raising the turn because he figured Kanter put him on AK or high cards. Raymer played the hand good, just got outdrawn.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kind of suprised that Raymer didn't lose it that hand. I'm impressed.

Think about how Phil H. would react in the same situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
It sucks that people are surprised when other people aren't jackasses.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raymer should have folded to the turn bet.

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[ QUOTE ]
The more I review his play, the more it doesn't make sense.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you are discounting Gregs read?

Pushing it pre-flop would be crazy. Pushing it on the flop would be crazy. Greg had a pretty big stack and overbetting pre-flop or the flop would only get him called by a better hand.

One can argue that he underbet the flop or the turn, but that is Greg's way of playing. He is not going to pot bet all the time. He would rather underbet which allows him to do it for a lot more than just his good hands.

If you were Greg, you wouldn't have won in 2004 or made it to 25th in 2005.

Ken

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing pf would not be crazy. Neither would doing it on the flop. He needs to have a roadmap of where he is going with the hand. I don't think he was thinking two steps ahead. If he's going to call in at some point, just push earlier. Slowplaying KK is a disaster on a dangerous board.


I have alot of respect for Raymer and think he is a terrific player. But I just don't like his play on this hand - which is not an insult to him.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I just don't like his play on this hand - which is not an insult to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more of a compliment, Overbet Master, sir.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...page=1&vc=1

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he's going to call in at some point, just push earlier. Slowplaying KK is a disaster on a dangerous board.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not remembering the hand correctly. Raymer didn't "call" all-in. He re-raised all-in forcing his opponent to call for all his chips on a draw with one card to come.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing pf would not be crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's be real clear about this... you favor an open push for $2 point something million? Are you serious?

You still haven't explained why he should fold the turn. Greg has explained his read here before. Stacking a guy who is way behind with one card to come is how you win tournaments. Greg plays to win... sounds like you play to not lose quite so fast.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

He should fold the turn because it's a dangerous board and he has one pair. Why even push the turn? He knows he's going to get called since Kanter raised 600k. Yes, Kanter had two hearts, but that's results oriented thinking.

At teh same time, I think Kanter made a bad play by not pushing the turn. If he is going to raise, just push.

If Raymer is pot commited, ok. If he's not, I'd get out. Most times he's beat on the turn against a strong raise.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

In my entire poker "career", I have never been, in a single NLHE tournament either online or B&M, as lucky as Kanter.

Have you?

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I just don't like his play on this hand - which is not an insult to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more of a compliment, Overbet Master, sir.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...page=1&vc=1

[/ QUOTE ]

Amazing. Simply amazing.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

ummmmmmm, still no answer to the initial question. Anyone have the episode tivoed that could figure out the chip counts.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

1. Slowplaying KK heads up is not crazy.
2. He didn't slow play.
3. Pushing would be moronical (yes i know that's not a word). A push (around 2 million) in comparison to the pot size at the time would be a nonsensical move, as hands you beat won't call a push, while the hand that beats you will. By far, most of the time you'll get a fold and win a miniscule ammount of money compared to the ammount you gambled with, while playing the hand (read: not a slowplay) will extract far more chips for far less risk.
4. "If he's going to call at some point, just push earlier" is not sound thinking. Pushing earlier virtually gaurantee's a fold, while playing out the hand and pushing latter pot commits weaker hands (and oh my, that's just what happened!)
5. This is all moot since we have no damned clue from just watching a hand on TV.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ummmmmmm, still no answer to the initial question. Anyone have the episode tivoed that could figure out the chip counts.

[/ QUOTE ]

easiest thing to do would to be go to card player, I'm sure they still have the live updates up.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

Any criticism of Raymer's play is results-oriented thinking. If a spade fell on the river and Raymer took a monster chip lead, no one would be attacking his play right now. The push on the turn to Kanter's raise was a power move based on a good read -- there wasn't any reason to put Kanter on a 4 or a set here. The board is dangerous in a low-limit game, but NOT at this stage of the tournament. It looks like Kanter put him on a couple of high cards and made a semi-bluff, but he decided he was going to gamble in the heat of the moment. Judging from how much Raymer lost on that hand, I don't think Kanter was pot committed (although someone could look up the numbers to find out).

What annoys me about Kanter's play here is that it looks like, from the footage we saw, that he called almost immediately, when he HAD to know he was way behind in the hand and putting his entire tournament life on the line with one card to come. He didn't think it through at all, and then couldn't even control his sh*t-eating grin when he sucked out. To call off all of your chips like that was absurdly reckless, and just a terrible play overall.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ummmmmmm, still no answer to the initial question. Anyone have the episode tivoed that could figure out the chip counts.

[/ QUOTE ]

easiest thing to do would to be go to card player, I'm sure they still have the live updates up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Actual Hand:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 20 - Ayhan Alsancak has the button in seat 5, Raymer raises, and Kanter calls. The flop comes 6c-5d-3h, and there's a bet and a call. The turn card is the 7h, Kanter bets $600,000, and the two players are quickly all in. Raymer shows pocket kings (Kd-Kh), and Kanter has Qh-Jh. Kanter has a flush draw, and needs to catch a heart to win the pot. The river card is the 2h, and Kanter makes his flush to double up through Greg Raymer.

Kanter's supporters are ecstatic, and cheering loudly, but the rest of the room is nearly silent as crowd-favorite Greg Raymer loses a huge pot. You can distinctly hear the cheers, but the silence in the rest of the room is almost overpowering. Aaron Kanter now has somewhere between $3.5 and $4 million, while Greg Raymer is crippled down to about $400,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 hand later chip count

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 1: Greg Raymer - $415,000
Seat 2: Tim Phan - $1,500,000
Seat 3: Aaron Kanter - $3,780,000
Seat 5: Ayhan Alsancak - $1,100,000
Seat 6: Phil Ivey - $2,815,000
Seat 7: Joseph Hachem - $4,630,000
Seat 8: Andrew Black - $3,385,000
Seat 9: Joe Connor - $1,700,000

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

I just saw on ESPN. Raymer bets $100K PF, called. Raymer bets $150K on flop, called. Raymer bets $300K on turn, raised to $900K to go, then Raymer moves AI, called.

This comes for ESPN.

Greg H.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any criticism of Raymer's play is results-oriented thinking. If a spade fell on the river and Raymer took a monster chip lead, no one would be attacking his play right now. The push on the turn to Kanter's raise was a power move based on a good read -- there wasn't any reason to put Kanter on a 4 or a set here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? It seems like there's a lot of results-oriented thinking coming from both sides here. Raymer's move looks like a genius read only because his opponent was a major donk playing with crap. If he had flipped over pocket sixes for a set here, wouldn't everyone be talking about how badly Raymer overplayed his one-pair?

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

Here is Raymer's account of the hand:

[ QUOTE ]
We are 8-handed, and blinds are 20K and 40K with a 5K ante. I raised to 100K as the first person into the pot, which was my standard raise for that level. Aaron called behind me pretty quickly, and my read was that he did not have much of a hand. The flop was 357 with one heart. I bet 150K into the 300K pot. Aaron quickly called, and I was very sure he did not have a draw, nor did I think he had a big hand of any sort. My best guess was a medium Ace such as AQ-AT, or a medium overpair such as 77-99. I thought he was either taking off a card to hit his overcards, or waiting for another small card before he made a move with his medium pair.

The turn was the 7h, and it clearly did not make his hand. I saw nothing in him to make me believe that he had just made a straight or a set. I bet 300K. Aaron quickly started counting out chips for the call and for the raise. It took him about 15-25 seconds to get the chips arranged. While he was doing this, I was almost 100% certain of my read that he had close to nothing, and was bluffing. I waited for him to say raise and to push forward the chips to legally seal the size of his raise, and then I immediately said "All-in" before he had even finished moving his chips. He got a completely disgusted look on his face, and said something like "I have to call." His raise was either 500K or 600K, and my last raise to put him in was about 800K or 900K more.

Aaron was getting about 4:1 on the last call, and had to make it, but he did not ask for a count before doing so. So, either he didn't care to check out whether or not he was getting the correct pot odds, or he had already done that math in his head when he made his raise. I found his quick interview with Rich on Cardplayer.com to be very interesting. He said he called the flop with the intention of making a play on the turn, which is the ONLY reasonable basis for making that flop call. However, he never said anything about doing this because he had a read on me. He said he thought that the board was scary and looked like a good board to bluff at. It made me wonder if he's really new to live poker, and is playing this event as if it were online. That is, is he ignoring tells, or not even looking for them, and just playing the cards alone? I can't say, because I saw so little of his play that day, and did not play with him on any previous days.

I was glad to get 1.7M into the pot on the turn as a 9:2 favorite, and glad to see that my read of him, even being a player I had almost no experience with, was so dead on. I only regret that the river was a heart. ;-)


[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

If the guy had a set, or the straight, then people would be saying Gregs read was wrong. But it wasn't. His read was correct.

Ken

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw on ESPN. Raymer bets $100K PF, called. Raymer bets $150K on flop, called. Raymer bets $300K on turn, raised to $900K to go, then Raymer moves AI, called.

This comes for ESPN.

Greg H.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, for the guy telling me to read cardplayer did you notice that I included the cardplayer report in the original post? Doesn't inlcude very in depth action now does it.

PREFLOP:

Ok so that means preflop Greg had around 2.3 mil and Kanter had close to 1.9 mil. Not sure what the blinds were but I would guess after Raymer's Raise and Kanter's call there was around 230k in the pot going to the flop.

FLOP: 6,5,3 with one heart

Raymer leads for 150k on the flop, about a 2/3 pot bet, not bad in this situation. Kanter calls, which I will never understand. This means that he put in 250k, 13% of his stack, with no pair on the flop with QJ and a backdoor flush draw against a very good/aggressive player that is hard to move off hands. I can not think of any plan he had at this point going to the turn.

TURN: 7h

POT is 525k Raymer Again makes a 3/5th pot bet inducing Kanter to come over the top since Greg must feel Kanter is in with a Pocket Pair 88-JJ to call the flop. This can be debated, with one pair Greg maybe should have looked to lock this down on the turn with the draws out there. Pot is now 830k to Kanter.

Kanter Reraises a little over the pot to 900k, 600 more to Greg. Pot is 1725, and Greg pushes in making it 700k or so more to Kanter. Kanter needs to call 750k to win the 3.1 million in the pot getting 4-1 on his call. Odds of hitting his flush draw with one card to come is about 5-1 so he didn't quite have pot odds but it was close and maybe he didn't want to play on crippled w/ only 750k.

RIVER: 2H

Kanter scoops a HUGE 3.8 mill pot

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you come up with your numbers. I just ran it and if Raymer doesn't have a heart he's 4.18 to 1

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

[/ QUOTE ]

9 outs, 46 cards in the deck, he doesn't know Raymer's cards. 1/5 cards are a heart, not that hard.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

[/ QUOTE ]

9 outs, 46 cards in the deck, he doesn't know Raymer's cards. 1/5 cards are a heart, not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's actually just OVER 4:1, not just Under...

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

[/ QUOTE ]

9 outs, 46 cards in the deck, he doesn't know Raymer's cards. 1/5 cards are a heart, not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right. And 1/5 equates to 4 to 1. It will hit 4 times and miss 1 time out of 5. 4 to 1. Not 5 to 1.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

[/ QUOTE ]

9 outs, 46 cards in the deck, he doesn't know Raymer's cards. 1/5 cards are a heart, not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's actually just OVER 4:1, not just Under...

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, sorry my mistake. But it ain't 5 to 1. Kanter was getting correct odds to call is my point. Which makes me wonder why he didn't just push the turn to begin with and increase his fold equity.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The odds of him hitting a flush with one card to come is not 5 to 1. It's almost 4 to 1(High 3.) If he thinks Raymer doesn't have a heart then it's almost 3 to 1 (Low 3.)

[/ QUOTE ]

9 outs, 46 cards in the deck, he doesn't know Raymer's cards. 1/5 cards are a heart, not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's actually just OVER 4:1, not just Under...

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually any 4 makes a split so it's closer and Kanter has more outs to a split than just a straight flush draw. (I don't have pokerstove so I don't know the exact numbers)

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

"So you're saying you should never call on the flop intending to bet on the turn, really? Wow." --Jordon Berkowitz responding to an announcer's results oreinted commentary that said his flop call with nothing and failed turn bluff was "stupid" during the WCOOP Main event.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

I strongly agree that Raymer's play was fine. There really is no defense for when your opponent plays very poorly and lucks out. Then again the luckiest thing in the world is to never have that happen to you for all your chips in a several thousand person tourney, regardless of how well you are playing. Raymer ALMOST pulled that off twice.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

At the beginning of the hand LM said Raymer had over 4 million chips. LM even made a point to say that Raymer had more than twice the average stack. Obviously this wasn't true since he was down to 400k after losing this 3.5 million chip pot. I wonder how they could have screwed up the chip count that badly without being edited.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He should fold the turn because it's a dangerous board and he has one pair. Why even push the turn? He knows he's going to get called since Kanter raised 600k. Yes, Kanter had two hearts, but that's results oriented thinking.

At teh same time, I think Kanter made a bad play by not pushing the turn. If he is going to raise, just push.

If Raymer is pot commited, ok. If he's not, I'd get out. Most times he's beat on the turn against a strong raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you only play online, which is basically the weakness in Kantor's game. You mention that 1 pair is usually beat by a turn raise, which is true. But, you don't seem to be willing to give me credit for making a good read of a relatively transparent opponent. If we were playing online, I would give Aaron's play a lot more credit. But, since we were playing live, he should have been thinking about me, and what cards I was holding, and how I would play them, rather than just looking at the cards on the table and in his hand. Or, instead of just thinking I might have AK, he should have been looking at me and trying to figure out how likely a hand AK was for me at that time. And I don't mind, I'm glad I was able to get millions of dollars in the pot as a 9:2 favorite; I'm only disappointed that I lost.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He should fold the turn because it's a dangerous board and he has one pair. Why even push the turn? He knows he's going to get called since Kanter raised 600k. Yes, Kanter had two hearts, but that's results oriented thinking.

At teh same time, I think Kanter made a bad play by not pushing the turn. If he is going to raise, just push.

If Raymer is pot commited, ok. If he's not, I'd get out. Most times he's beat on the turn against a strong raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you only play online, which is basically the weakness in Kantor's game. You mention that 1 pair is usually beat by a turn raise, which is true. But, you don't seem to be willing to give me credit for making a good read of a relatively transparent opponent. If we were playing online, I would give Aaron's play a lot more credit. But, since we were playing live, he should have been thinking about me, and what cards I was holding, and how I would play them, rather than just looking at the cards on the table and in his hand. Or, instead of just thinking I might have AK, he should have been looking at me and trying to figure out how likely a hand AK was for me at that time. And I don't mind, I'm glad I was able to get millions of dollars in the pot as a 9:2 favorite; I'm only disappointed that I lost.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I first posted, I went through the play over and over, used pokerstove, reviewed Kanter's bets, etc, and you are right (I'm not being results oriented here either). Good play, good read, good all around by you.

Re: Anyone have Exact Chip Counts of the Raymer vs. Kanter hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like you only play online, which is basically the weakness in Kantor's game. You mention that 1 pair is usually beat by a turn raise, which is true. But, you don't seem to be willing to give me credit for making a good read of a relatively transparent opponent. If we were playing online, I would give Aaron's play a lot more credit. But, since we were playing live, he should have been thinking about me, and what cards I was holding, and how I would play them, rather than just looking at the cards on the table and in his hand. Or, instead of just thinking I might have AK, he should have been looking at me and trying to figure out how likely a hand AK was for me at that time. And I don't mind, I'm glad I was able to get millions of dollars in the pot as a 9:2 favorite; I'm only disappointed that I lost.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg, I am willing to give you credit for a good read, but I think a lot of the criticism of Kantor's play of the hand is unjustified. Calling behind with the intention to bluff or semibluff most turns is not as bad a play as many people are making it out to be. Obviously it looks donkish cause you happened to have KK, but most of the time you do not have JJ-AA, which is probably the minimum that you would call against a raise on the turn. And even if you did have JJ-AA (which is certainly not that high of a probability given what I've heard about your open-raising standards) he might be able to get you to lay those down as well. Maybe he didn't have a read on you, but he doesn't need a read for his play to be correct in the long run because there is a good chance that you call there with very few hands, and even if you do call he has 9 outs.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kantor's play was optimal, but I am pretty sure that if a big name pro had made the same play he would not be criticized as much. I would like to point at that Kantor's play on the QJ hand was very similar to your call-to-bluff with 22 earlier in the tournment, which was arguably more questionable considering that you were out of position.