How to play 88?
 

My table image was actually a LAG, I was catching good starting hands, but getting no flop improvement. My stats after 40 hands are 42/12/3. No reads on villain, but he has done noting out of line.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero ($228.25)
MP ($94.95)
Button ($312.70)
SB (villain)/ ($78.25)
BB ($248.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (villain)/ raises to $10</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($22) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
villain checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($22) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">villain bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, villain calls $8.

River: ($46) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">villain bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">villain raises to $56.25</font>, Hero ????

Am I good here? What do you make of the donk bet followed by the reraise? Critique on all streets encouraged.

Re: How to play 88?
 

I would much prefer to make a real turn raise and then not put any more money in

On the river, I would probably fold to his 3-bet, as A-high is more likely to just flat-call, so you're looking at snapping off a bluff. I don't think he's bluffing enough to call

Re: How to play 88?
 

I raise this preflop every time, is that stupid?

On the flop I certainly will bet 2/3 pot or so. If he calls I will probably check behind on the turn.

On a good day he had slowplayd a monster and you hit your 6-outer.

As played a fold is in order to the river 3-bet.

Re: How to play 88?
 

I fold to his 3-bet on the river.

Does anyone lead/bet this flop?

Re: How to play 88?
 

villian is in the blinds

but no, I prefer to check behind and bet/call the turn

Re: How to play 88?
 

I bet this flop after villian checks. Most of the time when some-one raises from SB and then check on a flop like this one it's AK, AQ or so. And even if its not hero has 6 outs 99% of the time.

Problem of course that Villian can c/r Hero outs of the pot with AA, KK that could had drawn out for free, but I think its more important to dont give a free card to 2 high cards.

Re: How to play 88?
 

I'd raise preflop, bet the flop, and just call the river.

Re: How to play 88?
 

What is your thought process on the river? I don't see any worse hands that can call you.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is your thought process on the river? I don't see any worse hands that can call you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain didn't play many hands so raising out of the blinds indicated strength. My thinking on the river was that if he had AA-TT he played them unconventionally (and -EV) for a semi-tight to tight player.

His $4 donk bet screamed A, hence my raise, his three-bet baffled me. He definitely does not have a 4. I think there is a good chance that his re-raise here is a response to my 'steal attempt' with an A.

I'll give results in a while, but am curious to get comments on this line.

Re: How to play 88?
 

I raise preflop. But hell, it looks like you are pretty loose and pretty aggro preflop so maybe limping every now and then is ok too.

I bet 15-22 on the flop, and if he plays then I know Im beat, and dont lose any more money, checking might let him have a free Ace/King/Queen/whatever

I prefer to raise close to pot on the turn, and I just smooth call the 4 on the river, as if he does have A-high, he is hardly calling my raise, so there is no point. I wonder if you get shown 66 or 44 here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is your thought process on the river? I don't see any worse hands that can call you.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

Id bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop. If he has AK or AQ I want him to make a mistake.

Re: How to play 88?
 

You expect an ace to call you on the river? Blah. Just call, IMO. If your read is really so rock solid that he has just an ace, that you are willing to call this 3-bet, then fine. But if you're not calling this, then you shouldn't have raised in the first place.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if you're not calling this, then you shouldn't have raised in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. What range do you put a semi-tight to tight villain who raises out of the SB and proceeds to show no aggression until the river on a double paired board?

This was what I was thinking as I was debating what to do on the river.

Re: How to play 88?
 

Quads?

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My table image was actually a LAG,

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $2,

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: How to play 88?
 

I am not wild about the check on the flop. Why give him the draw? You have top pair and a gutshot. Make him pay for cards.

If he pushes back start thinking about overpair or 2 overs.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My table image was actually a LAG,

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $2,

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say LAG was my style, but my PT stats at the table after 40 hands were definitely LAG like, hence my image was a LAG. I tend to vary my play based upon table conditions. PT has me auto-rated (excession's 6-max rules) the dreaded ? for my last 40k hands.

What do think about my play post-flop?

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My table image was actually a LAG,

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $2,

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say LAG was my style, but my PT stats at the table after 40 hands were definitely LAG like, hence my image was a LAG. I tend to vary my play based upon table conditions. PT has me auto-rated (excession's 6-max rules) the dreaded ? for my last 40k hands.

What do think about my play post-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop. The size of your turn raise makes my brain bleed. Raising the river is fine if you're calling the push but against someone who hasn't gotten out of line, I see no value in it.

Also, you misused the term "donk bet" earlier (its usually one word, i.e. "donkbet", too). Explaining stuff on this board is hard enough when people use the uber1337 2+2 terminology correctly; let alone when they don't.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. The size of your turn raise makes my brain bleed. Raising the river is fine if you're calling the push but against someone who hasn't gotten out of line, I see no value in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought villain was perfectly capable of check raising if he had AA or KK. However, a bet there will fold most overs, so it is a valid point. Okay, so my raise was weak, no counter argument there. On the river, (see my response to TWP), I was trying to advertise I have an ace and he should call to split. Interpreting his raise is what I find to be the most interesting part of this hand. If I am ahead on the turn, then I am still ahead on the river, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you misused the term "donk bet" earlier (its usually one word, i.e. "donkbet", too). Explaining stuff on this board is hard enough when people use the uber1337 2+2 terminology correctly; let alone when they don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nit! Is Uberdonk one word or two? I am thinking of requesting this as my title and want to make sure it is phonetically correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interpreting his raise is what I find to be the most interesting part of this hand. If I am ahead on the turn, then I am still ahead on the river, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Barring something like A4s for villain, this is true. I am hard pressed to come up with something that takes his line that you are beating on the end. 77 is the only one that comes to mind..... on the other hand, scads of better hands could play this way (better pocket pair, flopped set, even a frustrated flopped straight that is tilt-bluffing with the best hand).

Re: How to play 88?
 

42/12 are very bad stats IMO for 6 max, no matter what cards you're getting, unless the table is ridiculously loose and passive preflop. I don't mind the flop check that much, because I think it's possible he's getting tricky with a bigger pair, and if he does have missed overcards he's drawing to 6 outs, you have 6 outs if behind, so unless you are winning here very often, I think a check is fine.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interpreting his raise is what I find to be the most interesting part of this hand. If I am ahead on the turn, then I am still ahead on the river, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Barring something like A4s for villain, this is true. I am hard pressed to come up with something that takes his line that you are beating on the end. 77 is the only one that comes to mind..... on the other hand, scads of better hands could play this way (better pocket pair, flopped set, even a frustrated flopped straight that is tilt-bluffing with the best hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see a flopped straight or a higher pocket taking his line. He raised from the sb and did not bet the flop and made a weak turn bet. What kind of semi-tight to tight player does that with a straight or TT or better? AK-AJ, 77 or 88 are his likely holdings here IMO.

In a situation like this I don't see how I am behind more than half the time.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My table image was actually a LAG, I was catching good starting hands, but getting no flop improvement. My stats after 40 hands are 42/12/3. No reads on villain, but he has done noting out of line.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero ($228.25)
MP ($94.95)
Button ($312.70)
SB (villain)/ ($78.25)
BB ($248.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (villain)/ raises to $10</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($22) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
villain checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($22) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">villain bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, villain calls $8.

River: ($46) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">villain bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">villain raises to $56.25</font>, Hero ????

Am I good here? What do you make of the donk bet followed by the reraise? Critique on all streets encouraged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if my remarks are stupid and obvious to everyone here but I am trying to learn to play short handed and it's a mystery to me.

Why don't you raise UTG with 88? Why do you call?

Why don't you put in at least a half pot sized bet on the flop? What's the point of checking?

Why do you raise only $12 into a $26 pot? Why not bet more? Say about $30? Do you put the villan on a straight draw?

Thanks

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry if my remarks are stupid and obvious to everyone here but I am trying to learn to play short handed and it's a mystery to me.

Why don't you raise UTG with 88? Why do you call?

Why don't you put in at least a half pot sized bet on the flop? What's the point of checking?

Why do you raise only $12 into a $26 pot? Why not bet more? Say about $30? Do you put the villan on a straight draw?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Your remarks are far from stupid. Raising 88 is a matter of personal preference. You will be OOP and overcards will hit on something like 75% of all flops.

The SB fired out a 5x BB raise. Typical raises are 3-4x, so I was really playing for set value. I was concerned about a check raise. Remember, my PT table image here is one a LAG. I was cognizant of it and I thought there was a chance villain was laying a trap.

I agree that my turn bet should have been higher. I was certain villain did not have a straight, a 6 or a 4. My thought process was concerned that he badly misplayed AA-JJ.

Re: How to play 88?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise preflop, bet the flop, and just call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

my line exactly.