Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

I play the $20-$30 sngs at PS. I've been playing for 3 months or so and I'd say I'm a break even player right now. I play pretty tight preflop (early game). But if I do get in a hand, I try to win it. Sometimes these little forays pan out, sometimes they blow up on me, which is why I'm still only a break-even player at this point. Like I said, I try a lot of things, I don't always take the books I read as gospel, and I'm still learning.

Anyway, what I'm wondering is are there any general idioms for extracting the most money from mega-loose aggressive/passive players early in the game--w/o losing it all? Without fail there are 2,3,4 of these people early on, mostly calling stations, and it's just a matter of time before they pay off someone. Seems to me like it's worth it to take some extra risks early to try to lay some traps and double up before only the solid players are left.

Trouble is I'm obviously not laying them right at the moment. Seems like over and over I'll raise big (5BB or more, depending on how many chips are in the pile) early with KK or QQ, just to have 2 or 3 calls, including A7 guy who hits his A on the flop. Then I spend all my chips trying to convince him I have AK (which is dumb I know, if he called with A7, he's not folding it very often). So then the next game, I'll limp with AT where I would normally fold, trying to trap Ax, only to run into an actual solid player limping with AJ. I am taking notes and I've noticed a pattern of myself getting bit in the butt trying to alter my play in these situations. But it's just so hard not to try to trap or otherwise milk these guys for all their chips early.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on strategies/plays that work for profitable early game fleecing? I know i still have a ton to learn.

thx,
Matt

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

chirp... chirp... chirp....

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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Without fail there are 2,3,4 of these people early on, mostly calling stations, and it's just a matter of time before they pay off someone. Seems to me like it's worth it to take some extra risks early to try to lay some traps and double up before only the solid players are left


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The second statement does not follow logically from the first statement. They are calling stations. Why do you need to set traps? Just pick up some good hands and bet them for value. The rest will follow...

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

As a general idea, I don't think that considerably altering your play to "trap" bad opponents is very good...in some ways, you're lowering to their level of play where another good, solid player can take advantage of you. Not to say that against certain opponents you can't open up some, but it's a slippery slope where you can find yourself making many mistakes if you aren't careful.

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Seems like over and over I'll raise big (5BB or more, depending on how many chips are in the pile) early with KK or QQ, just to have 2 or 3 calls, including A7 guy who hits his A on the flop. Then I spend all my chips trying to convince him I have AK (which is dumb I know, if he called with A7, he's not folding it very often).

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If you're against 1 opponent (or maybe 2 and 1 checked to you) you can continuation bet KK and QQ on an A high flop, but if you get called you're looking to show the hand down cheaply. You also need to get used to folding these hands postflop when it becomes clear you are against an A. Yeah it sucks, but just think of those times that you face three callers, undercards flop, and you end up taking down a nice pot.

Something to remember:
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Seems like over and over I'll raise big...

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1. Poker is streaky, and there will be times that your KK does continuously run into an A on the flop. Keep it in perspective...long term it won't happen as often as it can in a short time.
2. We tend to remember times that we are screwed more than times we screw someone else. We don't think twice when our AT beats KK, but say "dammit, he beat my KK" when it happens to us. We view ourselves as really unlucky when 66 sets against our AA but just move on to the next hand when our lower pocket pair cracks AA. We tend to have selective memories when it comes to these things, so it's often not as bad as we remember it.

Also, as a general rule, you'll find better advice if you post specific hands using the guidelines in the FAQ. It's really hard to give meaningful feedback to a general post that encompasses so many situations and concepts.

Good luck.

-SonnyJay

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Donks are easy to make $$ from - Group 1 Hands.

But, imho, it's even easier to make money off of TAGs. Raise EP with 67s, 78s, or 98s in level 1 or 2. A raise of 50 or 65 is good. AA/KK will usually reraise you to 100 or 125. No problem. You're a 4 to 1 dog. But that's ok. Because if flop does not have a straight or strong draws, I'm out of there. If it does, I get 800 chips since they push thinking I have smaller pockets or AK-AT.

So, 4 times I lose 100 chips (-400) and one time I win (800). Net +400 chips. Numbers are even better if u consider bluff potential with certain boards.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Thanks a lot Sonny, that was some good adivce. I'll come with a specific hand the next time I want some. Btw is there a card converter for PS like that one everyone uses for PP hands?

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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Donks are easy to make $$ from - Group 1 Hands.

But, imho, it's even easier to make money off of TAGs. Raise EP with 67s, 78s, or 98s in level 1 or 2. A raise of 50 or 65 is good. AA/KK will usually reraise you to 100 or 125. No problem. You're a 4 to 1 dog. But that's ok. Because if flop does not have a straight or strong draws, I'm out of there. If it does, I get 800 chips since they push thinking I have smaller pockets or AK-AT.

So, 4 times I lose 100 chips (-400) and one time I win (800). Net +400 chips. Numbers are even better if u consider bluff potential with certain boards.

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This is terrible advice. I hope you are joking.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

to be honest man, most 1-table tourny players aren't that good pf, I would say that a 109 or 215 SNG is equivalent to a NL 50 game when it's 7-10 handed. And when it's 6 equivalent to NL 100. when it's 5 or lower is when it gets tough. I would recomend playing ring games. Get used to 6 max and 10 handed play for cash, cause it's suppose to be really similiar. It will also help out your post flop play if you play cash games.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

I don't think he is. I saw yesterday at a $55 someone I thought was a good player, min-raise and call a re-raise all-in preflop with, erm, 5 4 sooted. He lucked out against 99 as well.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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Donks are easy to make $$ from - Group 1 Hands.

But, imho, it's even easier to make money off of TAGs. Raise EP with 67s, 78s, or 98s in level 1 or 2. A raise of 50 or 65 is good. AA/KK will usually reraise you to 100 or 125. No problem. You're a 4 to 1 dog. But that's ok. Because if flop does not have a straight or strong draws, I'm out of there. If it does, I get 800 chips since they push thinking I have smaller pockets or AK-AT.

So, 4 times I lose 100 chips (-400) and one time I win (800). Net +400 chips. Numbers are even better if u consider bluff potential with certain boards.

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cool! i'll start doing this!

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Please do, if you sit at my table and like getting all in on the flop on what will most times be a draw..

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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Please do, if you sit at my table and like getting all in on the flop on what will most times be a draw..

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i guess i have to few posts to make this kind of joke huh

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Nah, it was more a pointing out the fallacy of the guy who posted it in the first place than a dig at you, don't worry..

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

There is a reason I'm usually chip leader by Level 3. Implied odds against AA/KK are huge.

Again, raising with suited connectors in pf is +EV play if you know how to play post-flop.

If you don't know how to play post-flop, stick with premium pairs and AQs+ in early rounds. That tight strategy is good for beginners.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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There is a reason I'm usually chip leader by Level 3. Implied odds against AA/KK are huge.

Again, raising with suited connectors in pf is +EV play if you know how to play post-flop.

If you don't know how to play post-flop, stick with premium pairs and AQs+ in early rounds. That tight strategy is good for beginners.

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Worth reading again

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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There is a reason I'm usually chip leader by Level 3. Implied odds against AA/KK are huge.

Again, raising with suited connectors in pf is +EV play if you know how to play post-flop.

If you don't know how to play post-flop, stick with premium pairs and AQs+ in early rounds. That tight strategy is good for beginners.

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Worth reading again

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Oh give it up already. Do you want me to post hand histories? It's a no brainer. Try it sometime. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

I think the Harrington on Hold'em books are great advice for post-flop play. Raising with suited connectors from EP is a bad idea, IMHO.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

derosnec,

The biggest flaw in your argument though is that while you will win a decent percentage of the time, simply saying that you'll have full access to that 20% of the time you'll win is inaccurate.

When you hit 2 pair or trips with 78s against AA, it's true that you'll often stack them. True of any 2 cards you hold when that situation arises. The issue is that the additional value of your suited connectors are your straight/flush possibilities, and more often than not they will still be possibilities on the flop. You will be flopping draws much more than made straights and flushes, and your opponent will be able to price you out of continuing on the flop with your draw. Simply saying that you'll stack the guy 1 out of 5 times is inaccurate because often you'll have to see the turn/river to do it, and he will often bet you out of your ability to do so.

And while you don't get to continue with your draw every time you make one, he does get to take you off your hand virtually every time you whiff. Because of this, your analysis that
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So, 4 times I lose 100 chips (-400) and one time I win (800). Net +400 chips.

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is very skewed away from reality.

It's true that implied odds are nice to have, but that does not in and of itself make raising with them the correct play. Their value comes not from going heads up with them but playing small family pots where others can make a hand against you and the pot is small enough for you to continue against reasonable bets without crippling your stack.

*EDIT: In addition, the obvious issue that the blinds are pretty insignificant on the early levels makes it less beneficial to risk chips with speculative hands to steal them.

-SonnyJay

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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I think the Harrington on Hold'em books are great advice for post-flop play. Raising with suited connectors from EP is a bad idea, IMHO.

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HOH has great advice, especially if you like to play tight. But raising with SC in EP is the correct thing to do - this is a technique of loose players like Erik Lindgren, who specifically recommends the raising EP with SC. But you have to know how to play postflop.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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I think the Harrington on Hold'em books are great advice for post-flop play. Raising with suited connectors from EP is a bad idea, IMHO.

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HOH has great advice, especially if you like to play tight. But raising with SC in EP is the correct thing to do - this is a technique of loose players like Erik Lindgren, who specifically recommends the raising EP with SC. But you have to know how to play postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Dan Harrington and Erik Lindgren play multitable tournaments. They are often working with deeper stacks against larger fields, which requires different strategy than online SNGs. Just because online SNGs are tournaments doesn't mean that multitable strategy is universally applicable.

-SonnyJay

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

So you don't agree with SonnyJay's analysis below? There may be a time to raise with suited connectors - even Harrington's book recommends this to mix up your play. Maybe at the 1000 chip level to mix up your play against people you play with a lot. Maybe at the WSOP. I don't think an 800 chip Party SNG is the place for it.

Do you have PokerTacker? Do you have real data to back up this theory? If you really get this good of implied odds with raising with suited connectors that's awesome, but honestly I don't believe it.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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I think the Harrington on Hold'em books are great advice for post-flop play. Raising with suited connectors from EP is a bad idea, IMHO.

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HOH has great advice, especially if you like to play tight. But raising with SC in EP is the correct thing to do - this is a technique of loose players like Erik Lindgren, who specifically recommends the raising EP with SC. But you have to know how to play postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Dan Harrington and Erik Lindgren play multitable tournaments. They are often working with deeper stacks against larger fields, which requires different strategy than online SNGs. Just because online SNGs are tournaments doesn't mean that multitable strategy is universally applicable.

-SonnyJay

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True. That's why I only do this rounds 1 or 2 when blinds are small. It's not like I'm commiting 1/2 my stack. It's requires extreme care but it's +EV.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Any reaction to my (or anyone else's) other analysis?

Other question: when you say it's +EV are you doing it based on net chips (+cEV) or on its effect on your prize pool equity (+$EV)? I have a feeling your play loses you more than it wins you from a $EV perspective.

Lastly, this isn't necessarily directed towards you, but it's on the forum a lot...just because something is +EV doesn't mean it's the optimal play. You could be showing a +EV result with this play (though I suspect that this isn't the case if you have a substantial sample size and software to track it), but that doesn't mean you can't do better than that.

It's not correct to think "it's +EV, so I'll do it" and not think about other, more +EV options. If that's how you think, if you were forced to take 2 options, one with an EV of -$1 and one with an EV of -$5, it wouldn't matter since both are -EV. Likewise, finding a +EV answer doesn't make it correct simply because it's +EV.

-SonnyJay

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

By +EV, I mean: assume I'm a 4 to 1 dog against premium PPs. If flop is good for me, I make 800, since AA or KK usually give up all their chips. If it's bad I lose 100 4 times (since I'm not committing anymore than 100). Plus, often, a bluff works when scare card comes since I was EP raiser (this is assuming I wasn't reraised pf).

I don't believe there is a big difference between 800 and 700 chips in levels 1 and 2. But I'm sure others will disagree. I get back up after going down to 700 when I lose.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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Oh give it up already. Do you want me to post hand histories? It's a no brainer. Try it sometime. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

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With all due respect, this is the kind of response I see all the time from guys who have just won a hand that they shouldn't have played. People who are results-oriented aren't thinking of how to play the game, only whether they win or lose, which in the long run is not the right attitude.

I'm sure posting hand histories is easy. I'll definitely try it sometime. No doubt it's a no brainer.

CJ

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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Oh give it up already. Do you want me to post hand histories? It's a no brainer. Try it sometime. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

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With all due respect, this is the kind of response I see all the time from guys who have just won a hand that they shouldn't have played. People who are results-oriented aren't thinking of how to play the game, only whether they win or lose, which in the long run is not the right attitude.

I'm sure posting hand histories is easy. I'll definitely try it sometime. No doubt it's a no brainer.

CJ

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This is the complete opposite of ROT. It's +EV. Move on. If you want to continue to play Group 1 hands only in Level 1 and 2, no prob. I'll do what I do and continue to make money.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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I think the Harrington on Hold'em books are great advice for post-flop play. Raising with suited connectors from EP is a bad idea, IMHO.

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HOH has great advice, especially if you like to play tight. But raising with SC in EP is the correct thing to do - this is a technique of loose players like Erik Lindgren, who specifically recommends the raising EP with SC. But you have to know how to play postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Dan Harrington and Erik Lindgren play multitable tournaments. They are often working with deeper stacks against larger fields, which requires different strategy than online SNGs. Just because online SNGs are tournaments doesn't mean that multitable strategy is universally applicable.

-SonnyJay

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True. That's why I only do this rounds 1 or 2 when blinds are small. It's not like I'm commiting 1/2 my stack. It's requires extreme care but it's +EV.

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WTF happened to this forum?? It's like the twilight zone for advice...

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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I think the Harrington on Hold'em books are great advice for post-flop play. Raising with suited connectors from EP is a bad idea, IMHO.

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HOH has great advice, especially if you like to play tight. But raising with SC in EP is the correct thing to do - this is a technique of loose players like Erik Lindgren, who specifically recommends the raising EP with SC. But you have to know how to play postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Dan Harrington and Erik Lindgren play multitable tournaments. They are often working with deeper stacks against larger fields, which requires different strategy than online SNGs. Just because online SNGs are tournaments doesn't mean that multitable strategy is universally applicable.

-SonnyJay

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True. That's why I only do this rounds 1 or 2 when blinds are small. It's not like I'm commiting 1/2 my stack. It's requires extreme care but it's +EV.

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WTF happened to this forum?? It's like the twilight zone for advice...

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No it's not. Believe it or not, you can raise EP with more than just Group 1 hands during Levels 1 and 2. And often, the pot you win is more than if you raised with Group 1 hands.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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This is the complete opposite of ROT. It's +EV. Move on. If you want to continue to play Group 1 hands only in Level 1 and 2, no prob. I'll do what I do and continue to make money.

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lol please tell me youre trolling. this is so basic its not funny.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

If I were you I'd probably just let it go. You aren't winning this one. The dissenters are doing so based on solid SNG theory that many have used to make pretty good money. It's true that there are different interpretations, but raising trash from EP without some serious metagame reasons will not go over well.

These people use theory and can back it up with results. You've made few arguments that back up your arguments, and those that have involve assumptions that range from gross oversimplification to wrong:
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If flop is good for me, I make 800, since AA or KK usually give up all their chips. If it's bad I lose 100 4 times (since I'm not committing anymore than 100). Plus, often, a bluff works when scare card comes since I was EP raiser (this is assuming I wasn't reraised pf).

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First, I mentioned why this "win 800 once and lose 100 4 times" argument is wrong earlier in the thread. Second, you're comparing it to AA and KK then assuming you weren't reraised preflop but he'll fold if some scare cards come. Then you can get away from it for nothing more than 100 but you'll sometimes bluff at it when you'll frequently be OOP. I could keep going with these but I'll stop here.

I don't mean this to be overly harsh, and I certainly can't stop you from doing this (many actually hope you continue to do so), but when you're going against tried and true theory you should have something to back it up and, when people make logical arguments refuting it, shouldn't take the
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I'll do what I do and continue to make money.

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stance and expect people not to flame. We're all here to become better players, so make your stance and, if people go against it, think about what they said and respond to their concerns.

Best of luck finding the best way for you.

-SonnyJay

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

This guy is a perfect example of why its not so bad to berate the fish...clearly they won't listen to you anyway and will continue to play trash thinking they have high implied odds.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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This guy is a perfect example of why its not so bad to berate the fish...clearly they won't listen to you anyway and will continue to play trash thinking they have high implied odds.

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you're calling me a fish? nh.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Suzzer, if you're still following this thread you may find the following helpful. Favorite Threads and Links for STT FAQ v.3

ps. I fold SC EP... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Wow thanks. I'll have to make some time to pour over all that stuff. What about KQs, QJs, JTs early pos.?

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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What about KQs, QJs, JTs early pos.?

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Personally I think these are very dangerous hands. People love there AK-AT, which means you are very often dominated when playing these hands, so you have to be very carefull.

That said, if the table is passive I may limp KQs from ep and QJ, JTs from MP. But usually, I want to be in LP so that I have position post-flop and know roughly what my chances are of seeing a cheap flop.

I know this thread turned into a discussion on raising suited connectors, but I personally feel you can get the implied odds and win big hands by limping, and thus not risking many chips pre-flop.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

If you're at a LP table, what do you think about goosing the pot 2 or 3BB (very early tourney) if you're going to limp anyway? One of my big frustrations is trying to get action on a min. pot when these cards actually do hit. Also I agree these things are trouble hands, I think I like them a lot less than the norm (I haven't read SuperSystem yet, but I've been told he goes bananas over 89s). Seems like even when I do catch some of the flop, I wind up worrying about overflushes, overkickers, or chasing draws trying to figure out if I have any implied pot odds. That said I happen to be on quite a streak of flopping trips with QJ, then doubling up, so I'm loathe to lay it down at the moment.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Hold 'em is a game of pairs, not draws. Rinse and repeat.

If you insist on playing LAG, you want small pots and play post-flop well. If you can't get away from a hand, don't play these hands. You will lose with them.

CJ

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

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If you're at a LP table, what do you think about goosing the pot 2 or 3BB (very early tourney) if you're going to limp anyway?

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Personally, I'm not raising with KQs, QJs, or JTs early in tournaments. If you get called you have to be worried about dominating hands. If you don't get called, the blinds aren't much of a prize.

I like to keep the pots small until I have a strong hand and then try to get as many of my opponents chips as possible. I only want to make the pot big pre-flop when I have big starting hands like AA/KK.

Later, when the blinds are big and no one has entered the pot ahead of me, I'll raise the KQs/QJs/JTs and hopefully just take down the blinds.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Thanks and I agree. Preflop I think I'm actually pretty tight and by the book. But I think just about every book advocates loosening up a little to maximize your value if the table is pretty loose, which they almost always are on the $25 turbos at PS. I do have this little irrational love affair with QJ that I'm going to ride until it burns me a few times. But when I play it, I either lead out raising EP or MP or call up to a small raise MP/LP. I never call a big raise or anything maniacal.

Re: Alter your play for donks - early game?
 

Does anyone advocate any early game plays against LP/LAG opponents? Or is it basically just sit back and wait for a premium hand, until the blinds go up to $100 or so?

(In case you can't tell, boredom/patience is one of my "problem areas" at this point.)