I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Wynn 15, crappy game.

I open on the button w/66

2+2er folds the SB, TAG-BB 3-bets, I 4-bet, BB 5-bets, I call.

Flop: 973r

He bets, I call

Turn: Q

he bets, I call

River: 2

he bets, I call

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Doesn't the 5-bet set off alarm bells for you? Or do you think he's capping and betting all streets with AK often enough?

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

90% read dependent.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

whats your image? TAGs dont bet that river with A high. He's gotta put you a PP.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

this would be highly read dependent, can yuou give a better description of the player? FWIW I fold this somewhere against most TAGs in the game. I might put in a raise somewhere sometimes.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Pretty standard.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Hi Joe if one of the normal posters on this forum or an unknown had posted this hand i would have jumped on here and said that letting five bets go in pre flop is spewage so i guess i will be honest and say i think it is spewage. I would have called the three bet and raised a safe flop which you got.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Joe if one of the normal posters on this forum or an unknown had posted this hand i would have jumped on here and said that letting five bets go in pre flop is spewage so i guess i will be honest and say i think it is spewage. I would have called the three bet and raised a safe flop which you got.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an aggressive player, the value of initiative with small pairs in heads-up pots (particularly in position) is huge. The basic point of the 4 bet is two-fold:

1. If TAG calls the four-bet and only has two big cards, you are completely putting the onus on him to improve and make a pair. This has many good effects, including that it'll be harder for him to push you out of a pot if you do have the best hand, and he might fold early in the hand because he thinks he's in worse shape than he really is (and make a FTOP mistake).

2. If villain does have a better pocket pair (basically 77-99), you will often be able to win the hand on particularly ugly flops (basically, anything with two cards J or higher). If you just call the three-bet, you are basically conceding to losing any such flop.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

I might fold the turn. I don't have time to work out the Bayes now, but I like this hand I'll do it when I get home.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might fold the turn. I don't have time to work out the Bayes now, but I like this hand I'll do it when I get home.

[/ QUOTE ]



AA (6 hands); KK (6); QQ (3); JJ (6); TT (6); 99 (3); AK (16)

Against this range we are ahead of 16 of 46 hands, and it be's lookin' like we need to call.

If we throw in AQ, that's 12 more hands we're behind, so it goes to 16 of 58, and it still looks like we need to call down.

Obviously this is very contingent on the fact that we assume villain will 5-bet a range that includes AK and that he'd bet the flop and the turn with it.

I kind of wonder if this is a case for calling the turn and folding the river, basically on the idea that villain's range gets considerably smaller once he bets the river. I'd obviously be wary of this against an astute opponent who might be aware that you were trying this, or against a donkish opponent who just figures he should bet AK because, well, it's AK.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously this is very contingent on the fact that we assume villain will 5-bet a range that includes AK and that he'd bet the flop and the turn with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea I am going to assign percentages as well to make the analysis a little more robust.

[ QUOTE ]

I kind of wonder if this is a case for calling the turn and folding the river, basically on the idea that villain's range gets considerably smaller once he bets the river. I'd obviously be wary of this against an astute opponent who might be aware that you were trying this, or against a donkish opponent who just figures he should bet AK because, well, it's AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll see if I can incorporate this too somehow.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously this is very contingent on the fact that we assume villain will 5-bet a range that includes AK and that he'd bet the flop and the turn with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea I am going to assign percentages as well to make the analysis a little more robust.

[ QUOTE ]

I kind of wonder if this is a case for calling the turn and folding the river, basically on the idea that villain's range gets considerably smaller once he bets the river. I'd obviously be wary of this against an astute opponent who might be aware that you were trying this, or against a donkish opponent who just figures he should bet AK because, well, it's AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll see if I can incorporate this too somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hotness...

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Given what you did preflop and how he responded, i think there are two options. Call the flop and fold the turn UI, or check/call the whole way absent of an ace falling.

Raising the flop seems bad, unless he's completely nuts and is known to overplay hands like AQ preflop.

Calling the turn and folding a blank river because you think that no reasonable player would bet an A high here is really bad i think. The pot is way too big to fold to 1 bet with a pair.

I agree with 4 betting preflop if he's an 'aware' player. His 3bet range is probably pretty broad versus what appears to be a LP blind steal, if that's the case. You also have him folding hands earlier on that have odds to draw, but won't out of fear that they're drawing extremely slim on account of your 4bet.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Very good reasoning. I'm interesed in how JBB calculations will turn out.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

JBB drop it.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Joe if one of the normal posters on this forum or an unknown had posted this hand i would have jumped on here and said that letting five bets go in pre flop is spewage so i guess i will be honest and say i think it is spewage. I would have called the three bet and raised a safe flop which you got.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an aggressive player, the value of initiative with small pairs in heads-up pots (particularly in position) is huge. The basic point of the 4 bet is two-fold:

1. If TAG calls the four-bet and only has two big cards, you are completely putting the onus on him to improve and make a pair. This has many good effects, including that it'll be harder for him to push you out of a pot if you do have the best hand, and he might fold early in the hand because he thinks he's in worse shape than he really is (and make a FTOP mistake).

2. If villain does have a better pocket pair (basically 77-99), you will often be able to win the hand on particularly ugly flops (basically, anything with two cards J or higher). If you just call the three-bet, you are basically conceding to losing any such flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then there is the real world where no one ever folds after putting in more than 3 bets in a HU pot.

Results....
 

Still waiting for JBB, but he'll find it's a call down, razor thin.

The BB showed AKs and my 66 was good.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
whats your image? TAGs dont bet that river with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree... they often do in Vegas and AC games, and its so sad to see it happen because they should know better.

PS: I like the hand, but its close.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Sorry if this sounds stupid but why is it preferable to call down from the flop onwards rather than raise that flop which looks pretty good for 66 heads up?

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if this sounds stupid but why is it preferable to call down from the flop onwards rather than raise that flop which looks pretty good for 66 heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

go look at the range people are talking about. we are behind in a big way.

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

why not raise the flop or the turn?

I assume we put him on overs enough to make calling down ev, but calling the whole way also gives him more opportunity to hit one of his 6 outs.

Then again, if he has an over pair and 3bets us, we may not be able to call down, coupled with the fact we don't want to get pushed off our hand by AK.

So, factoring all this in, calling down is the best play?

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Me I'm probably done on the turn...

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

Usually, I just call the pf three bet and call the flop and fold the turn.

How about raising the flop and folding to a reraise?

Re: I have a show down hand, so, I go to show down...
 

because you're getting 3-bet by worse hands too often.