When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

Button is a TAG (16.7/7.14/1.22/22.22), rest are either fishy or i don't have reads yet.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (23.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 35.50 BB

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

I usually like to raise preflop here, but I limp it sometimes too. Depends on the table.

I'm definitely raising this turn myself. I'm not slowing down yet.

The river is just brutal. I would fold it when its 2 back to me, but I wouldn't be too happy about it.

Edit: Nevermind I read it wrong. For some reason I didn't think Button was raising.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

When its 2 back to you on the turn

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

he had a strong hand, but i take it you mean because he didn't raise on river. he got scared a bit.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

if all the bettors were instead fish, would you change your mind?

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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he had a strong hand, but i take it you mean because he didn't raise on river. he got scared a bit.

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No I just read the hand wrong, my bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

I don't think you can get away from that hand anywhere.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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When its 2 back to you on the turn

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Not a chance. What are you afraid of?

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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When its 2 back to you on the turn

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My sarcasm meter isn't even jiggling. Are you serious? Even if somebody has the case king and has you out-kicked, you're getting 9:1 on the second call and you have 6 outs to a split and 3 to an outright win. I can't imagine why Hero isn't raising this river when bet into.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

really? lost 8.5BB.. you can probably guess what Button had.

those offsuit high cards continue to be a problem for me.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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you can probably guess what Button had.

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KJ, maybe KQ. Anyone who can find a place to fold KT here though is a better player than me.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

66

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

I really can't see how you fold this hand. I probably would have even raised the turn. Either way you have to call it down.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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When its 2 back to you on the turn

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My sarcasm meter isn't even jiggling. Are you serious? Even if somebody has the case king and has you out-kicked, you're getting 9:1 on the second call and you have 6 outs to a split and 3 to an outright win. I can't imagine why Hero isn't raising this river when bet into.

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I think hero should fold on the flop when it's 2 back to him.

When it's 2 back to hero on the flop , he may be getting a zillion/1 immediate odds but it looks like he may have to put in another 8BB to get to showdown so his effective odds are nearer 3/1 (and this is assuming everyone stays into the end).

With 3 opponents who love their hand on a KK6r board surely he's looking at 66 and Kx so he likely has 3 outs and should fold.


Trying to learn so can some of you guys explain the error in my thinking?


Thanks

rgb

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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you can probably guess what Button had.

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KJ, maybe KQ. Anyone who can find a place to fold KT here though is a better player than me.

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... and me

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

*grunch*

I think UTG has the other K (probably KJ, KT, K9).

MP2 I'm giving A6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I think Button wins the hand with 66.


I don't know whether I could get away from this.
I'd just be screaming for this hand to end

Only on Party would you get 4 players to the river on this hand.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

I agree with the other newbie [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You face a raise and reraise with the possibility of a flush and FH on the board (I ignore the gutshot because of the betting). Do you really think you can beat BOTH of them with your unconcealed trips?

If so I need to move over to Party...

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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When its 2 back to you on the turn

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My sarcasm meter isn't even jiggling. Are you serious? Even if somebody has the case king and has you out-kicked, you're getting 9:1 on the second call and you have 6 outs to a split and 3 to an outright win. I can't imagine why Hero isn't raising this river when bet into.

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I think hero should fold on the flop when it's 2 back to him.

When it's 2 back to hero on the flop , he may be getting a zillion/1 immediate odds but it looks like he may have to put in another 8BB to get to showdown so his effective odds are nearer 3/1 (and this is assuming everyone stays into the end).

With 3 opponents who love their hand on a KK6r board surely he's looking at 66 and Kx so he likely has 3 outs and should fold.


Trying to learn so can some of you guys explain the error in my thinking?


Thanks

rgb

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I think you've got to take the zillion-1 immediate odds and see the turn. I think you're correct that the effective odds are closer to 3-1 if we go to showdown. However, if we don't improve on the river we don't need to call the last 4 bets, improving the effective odds to 7 - 1 or better. Someone better at the math can figure it exactly.

I'd really hate to throw this hand away before the river with such a huge pot. I think we can be sure we're beat on the river and fold there, though. Having said that, I probably would have played it like OP [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When its 2 back to you on the turn

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My sarcasm meter isn't even jiggling. Are you serious? Even if somebody has the case king and has you out-kicked, you're getting 9:1 on the second call and you have 6 outs to a split and 3 to an outright win. I can't imagine why Hero isn't raising this river when bet into.

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I think hero should fold on the flop when it's 2 back to him.

When it's 2 back to hero on the flop , he may be getting a zillion/1 immediate odds but it looks like he may have to put in another 8BB to get to showdown so his effective odds are nearer 3/1 (and this is assuming everyone stays into the end).

With 3 opponents who love their hand on a KK6r board surely he's looking at 66 and Kx so he likely has 3 outs and should fold.


Trying to learn so can some of you guys explain the error in my thinking?


Thanks

rgb

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The thing is that very rarely are you going to have to pay 8 bets to see a showdown. Usually someone will slow down.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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With 3 opponents who love their hand on a KK6r board surely he's looking at 66 and Kx so he likely has 3 outs and should fold.


Trying to learn so can some of you guys explain the error in my thinking?

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The errors in your thinking are: one, on the turn if he's up against Kx and 66 (or 77), then he's got 4 outs (one 7/6 and three tens) (not to mention that he's likely already ahead of Kx since there was no raise preflop); two, without better reads on your opponents you have no way of accurately predicting what the river action is going to be; and, three, without solid reads on your opponents there is no way you should be folding top trips, good kicker in a pot this big (assuming you're definitely up against 2 hands that have you beat is MUBS). Actually, I can't imagine a read good enough on my opponents to get me to fold this hand playing .5/1 on Party, et al.

Edit: whoa. Holy crap. I thought you were talking about the turn. You just can't fold this on the flop, no matter what. Again, you're likely ahead of Kx on the flop, and against 66 you've got 3 outs to the turn, 6 to the river (unless the turn is the unlikely case 6).

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

Oh boy what a tough spot to be in. No matter what though you have to understand that you are somehow beat on the river in this spot. I'd call the flop and the turn with the intent of folding on the river if I do not improve to a full house. With all that action on the flop, you have to realize that one of them has the other king, and another must have a set (nobody is going to threebet without at least a K - AA would most certainly just call to this board). If you play this to the river with the intention of folding on the river, the implied odds you get are correct to play to the turn. You stand to win quite a few extra bets on the river if you improve to the nuts or work a split w/ the other king. I would not think twice about folding on the river if I don't improve.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

good call on Button and UTG+1

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has 4d Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has Ts Ks (three of a kind, kings).
MP2 has Qc Jc (flush, king high).
Button has 6c 6d (full house, sixes full of kings).
Outcome: Button wins 35.50 BB. </font>

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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You face a raise and reraise with the possibility of a flush and FH on the board. Do you really think you can beat BOTH of them with your unconcealed trips?

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I said before I wouldn't fold the river, but I've been playing almost all 6max lately which probably skewed my thinking towards a call. In a full ring game with this board and action, folding the river when it comes back reraised looks fine.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

I figured UTG+1 for the 66 since he was last bet in - unreal button has the nuts and doesn't cap the river...

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

Button is TAG - you think he is staying in on this river w/o 66, Kx (K6) ? He has better than trips because there is a flush and boat draw on the table - fold the river.

That said - would Button have folded 66 to a PF raise if MP2 called it? You are first in w/ KTs suited - I think this may have changed the entire hand (e.g. you win / split).

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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I figured UTG+1 for the 66 since he was last bet in - unreal button has the nuts and doesn't cap the river...

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You need to look again if you think that Button has the nuts. Looks to me like he's got the 7th nuts, and any of the hands that beat him are possible given the action. I'll leave it to you as homework to identify the 6 hands he's behind.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

o ok - 77 88 KK K8 K7 K6 but stil...

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
good call on Button and UTG+1

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has 4d Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has Ts Ks (three of a kind, kings).
MP2 has Qc Jc (flush, king high).
Button has 6c 6d (full house, sixes full of kings).
Outcome: Button wins 35.50 BB. </font>

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The only time I get mad at donks these days is when some dummy like UTG+1 costs me a ton of bets. So frustrating.

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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(assuming you're definitely up against 2 hands that have you beat is MUBS). Actually, I can't imagine a read good enough on my opponents to get me to fold this hand playing .5/1 on Party, et al.


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Hi bozlax


What hands do you put hero's 3 opponents on when this flop is capped 4 ways?

There are no draws &amp; no PFR so AA is unlikely.

Hell, given the flop action, there are only 2 reasonable hands to go round 3 opponents so even the "PP moron" factor can be discounted. I'm sure if both UTG+1 and MP2 were maniacs, the OP would have mentioned it.

I guess my problem with this hand is I'm convinced that hero is up against Kx and 66 because of the flop action (even at .50/1).

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Edit: whoa. Holy crap. I thought you were talking about the turn. You just can't fold this on the flop, no matter what. Again, you're likely ahead of Kx on the flop, and against 66 you've got 3 outs to the turn, 6 to the river (unless the turn is the unlikely case 6).

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Hehe, I knew I'd get slated for suggesting a flop fold.

So if we assume, for argument's sake, that 66 and Kx are out there and we're drawing to 3 outs on the turn then 4.5 outs on river it's still OK to continue? Implied odds if you hit a ten maybe?


Thanks for your time...

rgb

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

Yes the implied odds are the reasoning. You stand to win a 8-12 extra big bets if you boat up on the river (How nice would a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] have been?). The donktastic guy with K-4 is sure to put in those 4 bets if you hit, and the 6-6 isn't going anywhere. You just have to make sure that you fold the river if you don't improve (that's also easy for me to say - I play a bunch of Omaha H/L)

Re: When should I have gotten out of this wild hand?
 

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What hands do you put hero's 3 opponents on when this flop is capped 4 ways?

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I think the flop is too early to put them on anything specific. Maybe A6s with the backdoor flush for one, a king with a worse kicker, etc. On the flop you could easily have one player that is overly-happy with a bad made hand (A6), acting behind one player who's trying to drive everybody out by raising with a mid-PP, followed by a guy who's got garbage but realizes this is going to be a monster pot and is going to stick around to see the turn thinking maybe he can catch a piece of it. Who knows?

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So if we assume, for argument's sake, that 66 and Kx are out there and we're drawing to 3 outs on the turn then 4.5 outs on river it's still OK to continue? Implied odds if you hit a ten maybe?

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I still don't like putting two hands out there and making decisions on it, based on just the flop action. I'm also not sure I like discounting the additional turn outs so much for a chop, since Kx might decide that he's out-kicked on the turn and fold. But, hypothetically speaking, the answer to both your questions is "yes."