What is Our Line?
 

50-100. I have JJ in MP. One very loose limper in EP. I raise. Folded to the SB, a very good player. He reraises. The limper calls two more and I cap. Three of us see the flop of A-A-3 rainbow. SB bets, limper calls. What's your line for the rest of this hand and why?

Jeff

Re: What is Our Line?
 

online or live?

Re: What is Our Line?
 

Online.

Jeff

Re: What is Our Line?
 

Call, check turn, depends on river and who's there and where bet is coming from.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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Call, check turn,

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What indicates I will be checked to on the turn?

Jeff

Re: What is Our Line?
 

Honestly, I like this flop better than a flop with a single ace. However, I think my action would be highly dependent on the SB in this hand. I mean, is he re-raising here with 10-10 or 9-9? That's the hard part for me, and I would probably raise this flop and fold to a three bet, likewise if it is checked to me on the turn i would bet and fold to a c'r. I think he's re-raising here with more hands that beat you than not....That's a tough spot....I'm second guessing myself as I type this, and I'd probably shrivel up and call dow, but I think a raise somewhere is better than to just call down.


Interested to see the results.



Good post.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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Online.

Jeff

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is sb is who im guessing, fold.
other option is call and raise turn hoping to put the squeeze on SBs KK/QQ, but thats quite a parlay.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

SB could raise here with 10's or 9's thinking I'm just trying to isolate the weak limper. He amy also call with these hands and look to checkraise a favorable flop bc he should know limper will call two cold pre. I'm not sure he wants to make this a big pot OOP with these hands but he certainly could reraise with them.

On the flop, the preflop raiser is leading into me after I cap with the guy in between. Does he have an ace or a pocket pair? Loose limper certainly could have any ace. He might call flop with any pocket pair but would prob discard something like KQ. So again, what's the line for flop and turn?

The turn is interesting too, but I'll get to that later.

Jeff

Re: What is Our Line?
 

I usually call this flop, and then I fold the turn if it goes bet, call again. If the turn goes bet, fold then I have to go into the tank, but I think it is a fold. This isn't the type of hand I feel I have a strong handle on, so my line may not be that great.

The Action Continues...
 

I just called the flop. Turn comes the third ace. So board of AA3A. SB bets and limper calls. How often am I not against quads or a bigger pocket pair here? Can I fold now?

Jeff

Re: What is Our Line?
 

You capped PF? I'd raise the flop, and fold to a 3-bet.

If he just calls the raise, I'd fold to a donk, but bet if checked to, and fold to a c'r. On the river, i'd check UI, call a donk.....

Re: What is Our Line?
 

The question here is will sb fold 99,TT to a raise or will he call down, also will he fold KK, QQ, to a raise, i very much doubt it.

To be honest i go call, call, you dont want 99,TT folding and i dont think you will get KK,QQ to fold, so it just seems call call is best to me

Re: What is Our Line?
 

i think flawless is deadon here. raise the turn! a 3bet and you gotta muck, but if SB is as good as you say, he may fold a better hand...and limper pays you off

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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50-100. I have JJ in MP. One very loose limper in EP. I raise. Folded to the SB, a very good player. He reraises. The limper calls two more and I cap. Three of us see the flop of A-A-3 rainbow. SB bets, limper calls. What's your line for the rest of this hand and why?

Jeff

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If the small blind is indeed a very good player, I dont see him betting 99 or TT on this flop after you capped preflop. I really dont see him betting a worse hand here, and I strongly believe you are drawing to 2 outs, Plus with the weak player calling he could also have an Ace which further lowers your already dismal probability of having the best hand. I would fold the flop. If you do call the flop, I really dont see what raising the turn will accomplish, Ive never heard of an opponent who would fold QQ or KK to a turn raise on this board. So its either fold the turn or call down and pray the SB does indeed have 99 or TT. I would fold the flop and given the way you played it I would fold the turn.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

What should SB have that you can beat? And then even if he would have reraised preflop with something like TT, first of all EP could have an ace, second of all you would have to fold the turn anyway if somebody would bet.

So your only chance seems to be to catch a Jack. It's close but I think that even with some implied odds you don't have a call.

Re: The Action Continues...
 

Funny hand. I always call down here...and I'm always beat. SB has me very worried and limper just calling in between 2 pf reraisers has me even more worried. I don't see raising the turn ever being +ev since many players would have popped flop or waited till river with 4th A so it looks too weak.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

Don't you have to be aggressive here? The action of the loose EP should provide some protection from the SB and make his play easier to read.

For that reason, even though you'd likely wait for the turn to raise with an A, raising the flop seems like a must. If SB 3 bets and EP calls or caps your cooked. If they both just call, you have to fire again if checked to and see if he'll make a play at you.

When the A hits the turn and one of them now lead, tough spot. I'd be surprised if you're good but don't think auto folding is the answer.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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For that reason, even though you'd likely wait for the turn to raise with an A, raising the flop seems like a must. If SB 3 bets and EP calls or caps your cooked. If they both just call, you have to fire again if checked to and see if he'll make a play at you.


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The problem is SB could see my raise on the flop as making it less likely I have an ace and could make a play on me. But he also probably knows I know that and could also see my playing an ace fast on the flop (same with me knowing a player with an ace in his position would usually checkraise flop or turn but since I know he's good, he knows I know he might bet an ace out on the flop lol).

What's your plan if he reraises and SB drops, then he leads the turn? What's your plan if he calls my raise and then leads out on the turn in the event of a brick (a likely, uncomfortable scenario)?

Jeff

Re: The Action Continues...
 

I think the biggest thing to consider is what range of hands SB will 3 bet you pf with. Does he know that you know that the limper is a bad player? Maybe he thinks you are trying to isolate the bad limper and therefore is reraising lighter than usual. Once you cap though I think you are making it clear to the SB that you aren't raising light. How bad is the limper as well? With him calling all of these bets it really smells like a small pp or quads. I would probably call during the heat of battle because I'm closing the action, but in retrospect the only thing that you can beat is a small pp from the bad player and 99 TT from the SB. If he had KK or QQ though it seems like he would almost certainly check it to you since you capped and then try for a checkraise to knock the limper out. However, maybe he knows that you know that he knows that and is using it against you lol. I'm not sure exactly how big the pot is or what the math needs to be to make a call correct based purely on the odds. I might get around to figuring it out, but I need some sleep [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Mike

Re: What is Our Line?
 

Like your line, call flop with a fold on turn when bet into. Obviously you have to call the flop to hope to nail a Jack. After that drop it. Your not folding off KK or QQ on this board and if SB did 3-bet you with 1010 or 99 99, so be it, but I would need to know he specifically would make plays like that before I call this down. Limper could easily have the A as well. After its capped PF it would take the SB to have some sort of holding to call another bet on the flop I'ld think. Either a small PP or the ace.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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If the small blind is indeed a very good player, I dont see him betting 99 or TT on this flop after you capped preflop.

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Betting is EXACTLY what a very good player would do in this situation, especially if he could expect the EP limper to call without an A.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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If the small blind is indeed a very good player, I dont see him betting 99 or TT on this flop after you capped preflop.

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Betting is EXACTLY what a very good player would do in this situation, especially if he could expect the EP limper to call without an A.

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Please explain to me your logic. To me a very good player would check and fold the flop if he had 99 or TT in the SB after a person like Jeff caps preflop.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

The logic is illustrated by hero's consternation -- the bet will often fold out a bigger pocket pair, especially given the possibility that EP will call with less than an A. In a big pot it's definitely worth a stab.

In a hand I've posted about before, David Pham made almost this exact move on me in the WSOP earlier this year and got me to fold QQ (he bet an AA6 flop, I called, 3rd player raised, Pham re-raised, I folded, Pham won the hand with 77). Maybe I suck, but Pham doesn't.

RESULTS
 

Ok, it took a lot of convincing for me to even post this hand because it disgusted me so very much. In fact, the next day at work I was in the middle of a project and started thinking about it and just wanted to vomit. Anyway, I mucked the winner. But at least, I wouldn't be the only one to do this, it looks like. The river goes bet, call. BB shows 99 and mucks 4-fckn-4. Oh well, we live and learn I guess. More comments appreciated.

Jeff

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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But he also probably knows I know that and could also see my playing an ace fast on the flop

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With the 3rd player in the hand isn't this play less likely for you?

Maybe the play is to raise the turn and take the free showdown. (Note I saw the results)

Re: What is Our Line?
 

I talked to Jeffage about this hand, but I wanted to post my ideas to see if they had any validity for the group.

Jeffage capped pre-flop so it's presumed he has large pocket pair or AK suited.

When flop AA3, sb (who had 3 bet) bets out, bad limper/cold caller calls, Jeffage should re-raise. Sure an Ace would slow play and go for the re-raise on the turn, but KK or QQ would have to raise here to see what's happening in the hand or put sb on defensive. AK can call so he's announcing he's got KK, QQ, or JJ, but that's fine.

If sb 3 bets and bad player cold calls 2 bets again Jeffage knows he's in trouble and can fold. Not just from the 3 bet, which could be a bluff 3 bet because Jeffage announced he probably doesn't have an A, but because of the cold caller. But, it's still 19 small bets in the pot at that point to Jeff at the cost of one small bet to see a card. Fold to any bet on the turn unless a J comes off.

If sb 3 bets and bad player folds, Jeffage can call to see one more card and fold to a turn bet. At that point there are 18 small bets and it costs him only 1 small bet to see the turn.

If sb has an A, wouldn't he prefer an overcall from bad player than reraise and take the hand right there? He might call, hope for the overcall and then bet out to guarantee a bet goes in on the turn.

If sb just calls, so will bad player. So Jeffage is in good shape for a check through on the turn potentially because he's shown strength, unless sb has an ace. He can value bet the river, if checked through again, or call one bet.

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When the A comes on the turn everyone has to either fear or represent an A in this situation.

If Jeffage's raise on the flop was the last bet it is likely checked to him. He can check and bet the river for or call one bet on the river.

If sb 3 bet and bad player called 2 bets cold and then there is a bet and call on the turn, Jeffage has to fold.

If sb 3 bet and bad player folded and sb bets out Jeffage probably still has to fold. But, if he made quads would he bet out after putting Jeffage on KK, QQ, or JJ? I doubt it. Jeffage has to fold to a turn bet with 3 aces and this action. sb would prefer to check and see if Jeffage made his nut boat or full of Qs or Js. He could then check raise or let Jeffage bet his hand to ensure the maximum action.

Re: What is Our Line?
 

Nice Post. Def some good logic in it.

Mike

Re: What is Our Line?
 

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The problem is SB could see my raise on the flop as making it less likely I have an ace and could make a play on me.

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It's exactly how he's going to see it, which is the whole point. You're saying you don't have one. If he has one, wouldn't he be just as less likely to 3 bet as you were to raise? So he'll likely call with an A and either donk the turn or go for c/r. I'm guessing he'd donk with an A so as not to miss a bet.

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What's your plan if he reraises and EP drops, then he leads the turn?

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Give him less credit for an A if he 3 bets, but more likely give him KK-QQ. He did 3 bet pre-flop from the SB. I don't think he'd 3 bet into you and the EP out of position with less than QQ. Calling and putting pressure on him to fire another bullet on the turn with 99-TT, knowing you'd rather raise the turn than cap the flop with an A, is probably the play.

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What's your plan if he calls my raise and then leads out on the turn in the event of a brick (a likely, uncomfortable scenario)?

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Most likely scenario in how I think he'd play an A and I'd feel the most comfortable folding.

So I think the best play is to raise the flop and hope it's checked to me on the turn, in which case I'd seriously wonder if a worse hand pays me off. Checking behind and giving a free card to a 2 outer might then get you paid off by a worse hand. Tough spot. Good post.

Re: RESULTS
 

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Ok, it took a lot of convincing for me to even post this hand because it disgusted me so very much. In fact, the next day at work I was in the middle of a project and started thinking about it and just wanted to vomit. Anyway, I mucked the winner. But at least, I wouldn't be the only one to do this, it looks like. The river goes bet, call. BB shows 99 and mucks 4-fckn-4. Oh well, we live and learn I guess. More comments appreciated.

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I didn't look at the turn or result posts before posting my other response. That's why I said playing the flop fast may give away you don't have an A, but also says you're betting they don't either and you think big PP is bigger than theirs and the best hand. Good post.

Re: RESULTS
 

I would have mucked also. Since you capped preflop, why
not a raise on the flop? Having said that, I would have put SB on AK or AQ.