A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

Here is a hand that I hate. I hate how passively I played it and I hate the fact that the more I think about it the more I am unsure what I should have done and what I should do in the future. I also hate that I can’t seem to properly calculate whether or not to raise the turn if I decide to continue.

I’m new to the table so I don’t have any real reads to go on yet so I’m assuming a fairly passive typical Paradise table.


Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 (poster) calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.


The Flop: I may have capped pre-flop but if I bet this board anyone with a mediocre draw is going to have odds to call and if MP1 has a big pair he’s either going to raise or flat call trying to raise the turn. Even if he just has over cards he’ll probably raise anyways either to get more information about my hand or possibly buy a turn card. If I raise MP1’s flop bet UTG+1 and UTG+2 are getting 12.5:1 pot odds alone so if they have much of anything they’ll come along for the ride regardless and then I’ll be left wondering what the heck to do if the turn also misses me. And so, I peel.

The Turn: Okay I still have nothing and top pair just paired up but no real aggression has been shown yet. Given the 3 bet pre-flop by an unknown I’d have to put MP1 on 10/10-AA or AKo/AKs. Give that he’s still betting into such a large field I’m leaning towards the PP’s more than AK. So I’m either drawing dead to AA, thin to KK, or to overcards against 10/10-QQ. I’m getting 15:1 here but I’m not sure if I can guarantee myself at least 3 out against such a large field. The pot may get raised behind me as I can’t yet rule out a 9 so I was a little lost here.

Here is where I am most lost. At first glance I’m thinking either fold or raise.

Fold: Folding is probably the safest play given the likelihood that I’m behind and the possibility that I’m WAY behind but safe play usually isn’t correct play.

Raise: Now if I continue on at first I thought a raise would be best. If I raise UTG and UTG+1 are getting 8.5:1 on a call forcing hands like JT to make unprofitable calls and making any flush draws pay the maximum. If MP1 (or anyone else) 3 bets me I can be quite sure that I’m behind as I’ve now shown that my hand is (Supposedly) strong.

Problems with raising: First of all I’m probably still drawing with thin odds, if UTG or UTG+1 has a 9 or if MP1 has a strong hand I’m getting 3 bet. If I do raise the only hands that I want to fold, and that I have much chance of folding, are over card hands like JT, QJ, and Q10, a hand with a 5 in it or small PP’s like 88 or 66. Given MP1’s range he has AKs or AKo 8 ways and a PP 27 ways (I very well may have calculated this wrong as I’ve never tried doing an analysis like this before) so again raising seems like a bad idea unless MP1 has TT,JJ, or QQ AND he won’t 3 bet me with those holdings.

Calling: I may not be calculating any of this correctly but I’m going to try anyways.

I put MP1’s range as TT-AA, AKs-AKo. So he has 8 ways to have AK(s or o), 6 each for 10-QQ and 3 each for KK-AA. So 8/32 or 25% of the time he has AK and we’re chopping, 18/32 or 56% of the time I have outs to an A or K, 3/32 or 9.4% of the time I have outs to an A, and another 3/32 or 9.4% of the time I’m drawing dead to AA. So now how many outs can I safely give myself for As and Ks? If I assume that I am drawing, I am going to disregard the times that MP1 holds AK. So, 56% of the time I have 6 outs, 9.4% of the time I have 3 outs, and 9.4% of the time I’m drawing dead. A 6 out draw comes in 6.7:1, while a 3 out is 14.3:1, and drawing dead means I’m screwed regardless.

Okay here I get lost and can’t see the end of the tunnel…can someone please help me calculate the value of raising as opposed to folding or calling?







And finally the river action should you wish to read it now or answer later:

River: (18 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB


Anyone think we can be good here 1/20?

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

Pre-flop: Even on a passive table, it still surprises me that 4 people would limp up to the cap. Your capping bet should have gotten you heads up or at least trapped the SB between you and the villain. Oh well.

Flop: Being aggressive with a drawing hand (that's all AK is at this point) is good heads up or with few opponents. I think you did the right thing here. However, you just defined your hand for anyone paying attention. Two high cards, unpaired.

Turn: I'm likely folding here. Too many opponents, someone has something by now.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

I play the same, don't see any reason to raise anywhere.
I fold the river too unless you have strong reads

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

My name is Jeff and I'm weak-tight. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Or not. But at the penny tables where I play, I bet the flop, fold to a raise, check the turn, and fold to a bet unless it's A or K. Flame away.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

preflop and are good.
i fold the river. and then i pretend not to care when it turns out that a-high splits the pot.

i'd consider folding the turn but i'd likely convince myself i had some clean overcards and i'd call. i think it's close.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

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Turn: I'm likely folding here. Too many opponents, someone has something by now.

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Here's my problem though...I'm getting 15/1 so can I give myself 3 outs?

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My name is Jeff and I'm weak-tight. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Or not. But at the penny tables where I play, I bet the flop, fold to a raise, check the turn, and fold to a bet unless it's A or K. Flame away.

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This is a truly terrible flop line. Both betting and folding to a raise are just awful. Betting is terrible because it is unlikely you have the best hand, and you're not folding this entire field. Folding to a raise is even worse because the pot is so gigantic you'll be able to draw to a 3 outer easily.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

Had SB not called MP's bet, I'd consider c/r'ing in this gigantic pot.

Edit: the turn, that is.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

I'm not thrilled about the PF cap, but even worse in my opinion is the check/call on the flop IMHO. I may try the c/r to get a free card on the turn if I go unimproved. As the turn came down, I have no problem letting go of this.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

It's awfully hard to get a free card OOP in a large field. Also, who do you plan on c/r'ing?

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

Yes it is hard, but if hero check raises mp1 and makes two players call two cold there's the potential to get them off a 9.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not thrilled about the PF cap, but even worse in my opinion is the check/call on the flop IMHO. I may try the c/r to get a free card on the turn if I go unimproved. As the turn came down, I have no problem letting go of this.

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I cap preflop for two reasons:
1) I want UTG and UTG+1 to fold and alot of people are folding when it's 2 back to them.

2) I probably have the best or second best (with A and K outs) hand right now and there's likely alot of dead money in the pot so why not let them pad it?


As for the flop check/call what can I do? If I raise the field is getting 8.5:1 plus alot of implied odds considering preflop action. How can I possibly fold with a pot this big? Also how likely do you think I am to get a free card on the turn being the first to act against a large field? I can see getting away from this on the turn but it's still a large pot and I haven't seen anyone able to break down the odds.

Perhaps breaking down the odds on the turn is too complicated to be done simply. If it were to assume a HU situation it would be easier to calculate the odds that I'm up against AK, TT-QQ,KK, or AA and the pot odds needed to continue. The fact that this is multi-way against opponents likely to be holding (because of the preflop cap)pocket pairs, Ace high, King high, or overcards to the flop makes this calculation highly speculative depending on what you percentage you assume your opponents hold one or more of you outs. Perhaps I ask a question that has no good answer.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

I think check-raising the flop might be your best action, but as you played it, I think I would check-fold the turn.

The pot is definitely huge, but in a large field, your hand is almost certainly behind, if you bet the flop, you have little chance of having anyone fold. Check-raising might get A5 or K7 to fold, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, you have no backdoor draws, there is a siginificant chance you're reverse dominated now (by those same people playing Ax/Kx). I think you have a strong enough hand that you can't fold, so try and knock people out and buy some outs if you can.

On the turn, I think your hand sucks. If there were one or two opponents you might bet to try and win it, but that's just not happening here. I would think a check-raise behind you is certainly a possibility as well. The pot is big, but I don't think you have enough of a hand to continue.

Folding the river is pretty standard, I think. One person waking up and another calling, overcalling is just spewing.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think check-raising the flop might be your best action, but as you played it, I think I would check-fold the turn.

The pot is definitely huge, but in a large field, your hand is almost certainly behind, if you bet the flop, you have little chance of having anyone fold. Check-raising might get A5 or K7 to fold, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, you have no backdoor draws, there is a siginificant chance you're reverse dominated now (by those same people playing Ax/Kx). I think you have a strong enough hand that you can't fold, so try and knock people out and buy some outs if you can.

On the turn, I think your hand sucks. If there were one or two opponents you might bet to try and win it, but that's just not happening here. I would think a check-raise behind you is certainly a possibility as well. The pot is big, but I don't think you have enough of a hand to continue.

Folding the river is pretty standard, I think. One person waking up and another calling, overcalling is just spewing.

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I like check-raising this flop too.

Is there anything to be said about this line: call flop, c/r turn given that a scare card does not come out. Waiting until the turn to c/r when a scare card doesn't come out might be more effective at protecting even though you only have 1 out to go and, seeing as MP3 was the 3-better, it's likely he's not betting a 9.

Not sure what the paradise 1-2 games are like, but in a perfect world this might get you a free showdown ...

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My name is Jeff and I'm weak-tight. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ . . . ] I bet the flop, fold to a raise [ . . . ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a truly terrible flop line. Both betting and folding to a raise are just awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you check the flop and it then there is a bet and a raise, are you calling two or folding here?

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

You overplayed it preflop OOP and on the turn when you should have folded. You could have folded the flop if the pot wasn't so big that it made it worth calling with almost any two cards.

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 (poster) calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (18 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB


Anyone think we can be good here 1/20?

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*grunching*

PF:
I don't like to cap unsuited AK UTG with a huge field like this. It makes for nastiness later on. I'll call and see what develops. Against such a field, top pair won't win as often (as against a smaller field) So think AK is strong here, but it is weakened by so many other players in. I call the 3 bet preflop

FLOP:
c/c is good. Betting won't improve your situation, and i think the majority of the time (my opinion, but i think its true mathematically anyhow against such a big field) someone has you beat here. c/c call is good, hope to hit an A, K and bet if one hits the turn.

TURN:
15:1 is juicy, but you're not drawing to a boss hand! You're only tring to spike top pair, and it might not be clean. We can worry all day about reverse dom. or be up against a two pair etc, but i lean towards folding here. The board is drawy, and a top pair might not even win the pot here. I fold.

RIVER:
Ya. This blows. But i call just to stay sane. OOPS! on second thought...i fold cause someone just donk betted the river into a huge field. He likes the river, i don't! FOLD.

**Insteresting. MP1 FOLDED THE RIVER...

Re: A few questions because I hate this hand.
 

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**Insteresting. MP1 FOLDED THE RIVER...

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Yes I found that very interesting too, I guess he had AK.

But as for the cap preflop out of position I really wanted to drive out UTG and UTG+1 preflop because I too do not like AKo against a large field.

I still think the chances folding these two players (or at least one) by forcing them to call 2 cold is worth an extra sb. This pot is going to be huge whether I flat call 3 bets or cap. Capping gives me the possibility of taking this flop 3 handed instead of 5 handed. (Sb isnt' folding for one more no matter what).

Also by my interpretation of SSH it isn't a bad thing to punish these players for limping preflop. Only myself and MP1 have done anything but call so I can expect to win more than 1/5 times here even offsuit.

Do you disagree? With what? The chances of making UTG and UTG+1 fold? or with what I say about punishing the limpers and winning more than 1/5 times here?