Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I suspect the two Villians in this hand to be fishy - playing too many hands, loose standards for calling raises pre-flop.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets, Hero ???

What's hero's play on the flop and why? What are you thinking when you are in a similar hand like this? What's your standard line for the rest of the hand?

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

i raise, hopefully a loose SB will come along anyway, but if not you dont mind knocking him out as that will increase your equity, you could have the best hand here, i dont really know what BB is betting with, but i dont think you really mind if SB calls 2 cold or if he folds

if SB calls, id check behind on the turn probably, if he folds, i may try to take another shot and check behind on the river UI, that way if BB has something like 98(and made a dumb flop bet), you will still be charging him to see a river, but if both stay in for the turn, it is unlikely that you are ahead

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

My standard line is to raise because you have two overs and the nut flush draw. You may very well have the best hand at the moment, also. Oh, and all the reasons the above poster listed. If you're only calling, then I like a raise on the turn, but usually I prefer to pump the flop when my equity is higher.

On the turn, if SB is still in, I'm going to see the river for as cheap as possible (unless I hit a diamond/ace/ten), meaning calling if BB donk bets again, or checking behind if given the opportunity, and then I'm folding UI to a bet most likely. If the SB folds, then it's more likely that I'm seeing showdown. So I might bet the turn and check the river behind, if allowed.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

Easy raise. Unless he has a very high % of folding to raise on the turn (in case you don't improve).

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I would not raise on this flop. The pot is small, so raising to increase your chances to win/get a free card it is not as important as keeping my implied odds large if I hit my hand.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I think both raising and calling have benfits, and i'm not sure that either play is much better than the other, but i'm inclined to just call because i have position on both players, and i feel like if they are bad as you described you have the possibility of getting the double big bet if they donk on the turn if you improve.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I raise this flop 100% of the time. Even if he has a pair, I am often a mathmatical favorite. Usually this will get it headsup and he will just call the raise. With a weaker draw and an aggressive opponent, I might just play passively, but with this hand, no way, even if I get three-bet on the flop I don't really care, as evidenced by my likely cap.

On turn, if I miss, my action is less clear, but I will probably go ahead and bet (depending on the turn card and board, likelihood of check-raise, probability my ace is good). The idea is my opponent is most likely bet a pair on the flop, but I often cannot be sure. If he is drawing and my ace is good, I would like a free showdown.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

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Don't be so sure this question has an easy answer.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

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Don't be so sure this question has an easy answer.

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but.. it does

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

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Don't be so sure this question has an easy answer.

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but.. it does

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Oh really?

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

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Don't be so sure this question has an easy answer.

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but.. it does

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Oh really?

[/ QUOTE ]in online 20/40 this is an autoraise.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

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Don't be so sure this question has an easy answer.

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but.. it does

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Oh really?

[/ QUOTE ]in online 20/40 this is an autoraise.

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In what game is it not?
edit: I guess in a high limit game with a small player pool you could sometimes smoothcall to be tricky...

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I raise because I have the best hand a fair amount of the time here, I have a billionty outs when I don't.

Rob

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I think the only reason to call with this hand on the flop is because you are planning on raising the turn to make a pair fold. Against fishy players, I'd raise the flop.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
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This looks like an easy raise. Am I missing something?

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You are missing the pre-suck days of this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so sure this question has an easy answer.

[/ QUOTE ]


but.. it does

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Oh really?

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Really.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

Against a passive player that won't reraise the flop or come out betting into you on the turn this raise is cleary +ev. This is amateur stuff. Post this in the small stakes forum and you'll get flamed.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

The problem with raising the flop is that we likely forfeit the ability to raise on a big street when we make our hand. Since we have a very strong draw (15 outs to top pair or better) we don't want to take the lead in the betting. Additionally, we aren't worried about the SB tagging along to the turn as well.

Call the flop, then raise the turn if we hit. Same for the river.

If we miss both the turn and river, we'll decide how to act then depending on the situation.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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The problem with raising the flop is that we likely forfeit the ability to raise on a big street when we make our hand. Since we have a very strong draw (15 outs to top pair or better) we don't want to take the lead in the betting. Additionally, we aren't worried about the SB tagging along to the turn as well.

Call the flop, then raise the turn if we hit. Same for the river.

If we miss both the turn and river, we'll decide how to act then depending on the situation.

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That's a lot of trouble for slim chance at a small bets difference (flop raise v turn raise). So when an ace comes he's supposed to bet his bottom pair no kicker or whatever and call you down? What about Kd? Qd? I see you getting a raise in, which is called by a worse hand on the turn maybe 1 out of 5 times. On the river, much less, more scare cards for his feeble hand, and you called his turn bet with sumthin'. He's checking the diamond or Ace for sure.

Maybe SB tags along for a flop raise getting us 2:1 for two bets on a close to even money prop. Or he folds and perhaps cleans up some outs. What if BB decides that pocket gork is no good when you raise preflop, raise the flop, and bet the K Q J on the turn?

"If we miss both the turn and river, we'll decide how to act then depending on the situation."

I really don't want to decide, can we just take a free showdown? Sorry, but I'd prefer to not risk losing the whole pot on the river, and increase my chances of winning the whole pot on the turn, then hope to get real lucky and get an extra half a bet.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I like to raise flops with hands like this, first of all because you are a solid favorite, and second because opponents will not give you much credit for a good hand yet; you might even be lucky and BB would make it three bets with a lower flush draw or something like 89.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

You mean, if you just call here you expect the BB to bet out when another diamond hits? When an ace hits?

Reasons to raise here:

(1) You just might have the best hand.

(2) You might be up against K6, and be the favorite to win with your 15-out draw.

(3) It can buy you a free river card if you miss on the turn.

(4) Even if a raise here were slightly -EV, it buys you action next time when you raise preflop with a pair and flop undercards.

Reasons to smooth-call here:

(1) Uhhhhhh.... Give me a minute, I'll think of something.... Time, please....

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

I didn't know this kind of hand was so controversial. I raise it in almost all spots.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

Ok, this is surprising to me so I'll respond in detail.

The argument for raise is basically that we have enough outs that the raise is for value. There are some other reasons:

(1) We might be ahead right now and raising can get us to showdown or make our opponent fold to our turn bet.
(2) We can opt to take a free card on the turn if we don't improve.
(3) Raising will often make the small blind fold and this improves our chances of winning the pot.

Regarding (1), how often do people think we will win a showdown unimproved here? The two most likely scenarios are that the bettor has a pair and the bettor has the flush or straight draws. Of these three possibilities the posibility that our opponent has a pair has to be the greatest by a significant margin. That means that we expect to have to improve to win this hand.

Regarding (2), we have enough outs that this is of very little value.

Regarding (3), it's hard for us to hit our hand, for it not to be best, and for it to have been possible to make the sb fold the hand that beat us. However if we do not need to hit to win (3) is very significant.

On the flop consider what you'd do if you know for sure that your opponent has a 6. Would you now still want to raise? If you would, I think you're making a big error. Raising now with ~50% pot equity and knocking out the sb is much worse than raising on the turn or river with ~80-90% pot equity.

Consider another case: we have 77 on this flop. Now should we raise or just call? People would probably come down on either side of this one, but call is certainly very viable. Having so many strong outs here is somewhat similar to having a set.

Conversely, if we are ahead, raising the flop is certainly better than calling. If the sb has, say, a 2 and we are ahead of the BB raising is also better than calling.

There is a balance here between the two possibilities and the decision to raise or call depends on how often you figure to be in either state and on the size of the pot.

I originally told Equal that this was an easy call, where you will sometimes raise the turn unimproved. Simply calling down unimproved is also an option. In retrospect the significant ability to win unimproved here could overwhelm other considerations (whereas 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] could just call). However, if we need to improve to win, which against many opponents we do, calling is clearly better. I'm astounded that so few people agree with this. Perhaps it's coloured by this being 20/40. If it helps, this hand wasn't actually 20/40, or anything close.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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You mean, if you just call here you expect the BB to bet out when another diamond hits? When an ace hits?

Reasons to raise here:

(1) You just might have the best hand.

(2) You might be up against K6, and be the favorite to win with your 15-out draw.

(3) It can buy you a free river card if you miss on the turn.

(4) Even if a raise here were slightly -EV, it buys you action next time when you raise preflop with a pair and flop undercards.

Reasons to smooth-call here:

(1) Uhhhhhh.... Give me a minute, I'll think of something.... Time, please....

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(1) How often do we have the best hand? How often to we win unimproved here? What does "just might" mean?

(2) How much pure value do we gain if the BB has K6 and the sb folds?

(2.b) How much pure value would we have gained by letting the sb come along with 33 or 76 or J2, etc if we called?

--&gt;Is being a favorite really a reason at all to raise?

(3) Given our large number of outs how much is a free card worth?

(4) Do we expect our opponents to even register this in a 9-handed online game?

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You mean, if you just call here you expect the BB to bet out when another diamond hits? When an ace hits?

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Often, yes.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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I raise because I have the best hand a fair amount of the time here, I have a billionty outs when I don't.

Rob

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how did you calculate a billionty outs? I only got a gazillion.

Re: Facing flop donkbet with big draw
 

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I think both raising and calling have benfits, and i'm not sure that either play is much better than the other, but i'm inclined to just call because i have position on both players, and i feel like if they are bad as you described you have the possibility of getting the double big bet if they donk on the turn if you improve.

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this is the only legitimate reason brought forth in this thread for just calling.