How not to deal at the final table
 

From tonights big tourney on Stars:

DaPhatAce had a lead of:

Seat 7: gunnygirl (967560 in chips)
Seat 9: DaPhatAce (7657440 in chips)

when heads up play began. He agreed to a 50/50 split when the chip count was:

Seat 7: gunnygirl (3577560 in chips)
Seat 9: DaPhatAce (5047440 in chips)

DO NOT EVER DO THIS!!!!

Dealer: Game #2993831871: gunnygirl wins pot (126000)
Administrator: The tournament has been manually paused
Dealer: gunnygirl doesn't show hand
DaPhatAce: 50/50
gunnygirl: oki
DaPhatAce: Hey gunny
DaPhatAce: its been a pleasure
gunnygirl: yup
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: So listen guys - you can do whatever you want, but you need to leave $10K on the table.
gunnygirl: tanks the same
gunnygirl: oki
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: So you want to split the remaining prize money equally, is that correct?
DaPhatAce: yes
gunnygirl: y
DaPhatAce: so split 210
DaPhatAce: 105 each
DaPhatAce: and we'll play for the other 10g hows that gunny
gunnygirl: we have to play f 10k
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: yes, you have to play for $10K
DaPhatAce: some incentive to that
gunnygirl: its fine of c.
DaPhatAce: okay
DaPhatAce: I'm good with that
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: Right now there's $210,800 you can split
DaPhatAce: But i have to admit this is the first time i play heads up for 5g
DaPhatAce: yes please split that
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: So you get $105,400 each, and then you play for $10K.
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: If you both agree to that please say "agree"
DaPhatAce: Agree
DaPhatAce: gunny your turn say agree
gunnygirl: agree
gunnygirl: with all da pfat says
Lee Jones [PokerRoom Manager]: Okay - excellent - thank you both.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

Ace obviously sucked HU trying to bluff at the wrong times and calling when he knew he was beaten.

It was funny how he rufused a deal 3 handed but once he realized he was outclassed he gave in. But congrats do both of them.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

If you aren't good heads up then push every hand. Don't agree to a horrible deal and admit you are no good heads up. How he made it to heads up is beyond me.

Calls all-in with QT suited for almost his whole stack and loses. Calls an all-in next hand with K5 os. Great way to blow tens of thousands of dollars.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

he is just flat out bad.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
he is just flat out bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

If so, hes smart to accept the deal. Especially if money are meaningful for him.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he is just flat out bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

If so, hes smart to accept the deal. Especially if money are meaningful for him.

[/ QUOTE ]


Very true.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he is just flat out bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

If so, hes smart to accept the deal. Especially if money are meaningful for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

he should have made the deal 3 handed then

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he is just flat out bad.

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If so, hes smart to accept the deal. Especially if money are meaningful for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Missed it, but could he have at least tried to get more? If I were him, I would've asked Lee to do the ICM calc and then said that that's ridiculous and I clearly needed more (quickly, before the other guy got a chance to do the same [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Then I would have grudgingly settled for the ICM deal.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

maybe he didn't even know about ICM calcs? sounds like he was a noob that luckboxed his way to the FT.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
maybe he didn't even know about ICM calcs? he was a noob that luckboxed his way to the FT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

yeah, gunny really blew this one. Oh well. On paper it is a good deal for her.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
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maybe he didn't even know about ICM calcs? he was a noob that luckboxed his way to the FT.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a tourney retard, what's ICM calcs?

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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maybe he didn't even know about ICM calcs? he was a noob that luckboxed his way to the FT.

[/ QUOTE ]

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I'm a tourney retard, what's ICM calcs?

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Independent Chip Model - Basically, a method for determining chip value during a tourney.

BTW, how is the butter treating you?

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

Awesome Avatar.

Just, awesome.

ICM
 

[ QUOTE ]
Independent Chip Model - Basically, a method for determining chip value during a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, being ICM-clueless myself, I went to that page and read about it. Then I downloaded the C source, compiled it (Cygwin) without difficulty and ran it. It looked to my cursory glance like it was s'posed to determine the EV's for stacks of 18, 24, and 30 in a tournament down to three players with payoffs of .2, .3, and .5

So Q1: Are my assumptions correct?

When I ran it, it printed out:

72.000 0.25 0.3333 0.4166667

which seems to be:


total_chips %stack1 %stack2 %stack3

Then it went into a long waiting period and then spit out one row of numbers:

1816214400 0.250000 0.303571 0.446429 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.305357

and a table. The table appears to be probabilities of people finishing in certain positions. But there's no guidance on how to interpret that.

In short, this program (presumably) does the heavy lifting nicely, but doesn't cross the t's and dot the i's, enabling a lay user to make much use of it.

(Even a comment or two tossed into the source would have gone a long way)

I may go have a look at the C++ source now and see if it's more useful. Does anybody wanna sell me a vowel?

Regards, Lee

Re: ICM
 

So I grabbed the C++ source and tried to compile it. I get a gazillion compilation errors - it looks like maybe I don't have some include files I need (#include "vector").

Help.

Thanks, Lee

Re: ICM
 

[ QUOTE ]
I may go have a look at the C++ source now and see if it's more useful. Does anybody wanna sell me a vowel?


[/ QUOTE ]

With that site there is actually a javascript ICM Calculator. It is easier to use, though its limited to only 3 payout places.

Re: ICM
 

Lee,

The Single Table Tournaments board has a whole lot of experience using ICM, so I took your questions and posted them over in STT. They'll probably have the best answers.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

My first "Win" came when my opponent had a 3:2 chip lead and offered a 50-50 split. Oh, hell yes.

What is the normal payout distribution?
 

What is the normal payout $$$ distribution for first & second?

Re: ICM
 

Send a private message to Eastbay.

Re: ICM
 

[ QUOTE ]
Send a private message to Eastbay.

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Yes, eastbay is the man WRT ICM calcs. The SNGPT (SNG Analyzer) is a tool that helps run through the ICM calcs for SNG pushbotting in an automated fashion.

(BTW Exit - the avatar is my dog from halloween ) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

I watched this last night... Actually played on a table for a while with Phat before going out 58th. ( I'm frodolives on stars ).

The thing I thought I noticed beyond what is mentioned in your post, is that in the conversation prior to what you have listed here, Gunny actually OFFERS a chip chop... to which Phat quickly says 50/50... Don't think he understood what a chip chop is...

Re: ICM
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Independent Chip Model - Basically, a method for determining chip value during a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, being ICM-clueless myself, I went to that page and read about it. Then I downloaded the C source, compiled it (Cygwin) without difficulty and ran it. It looked to my cursory glance like it was s'posed to determine the EV's for stacks of 18, 24, and 30 in a tournament down to three players with payoffs of .2, .3, and .5

So Q1: Are my assumptions correct?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[ QUOTE ]

When I ran it, it printed out:

72.000 0.25 0.3333 0.4166667

which seems to be:

total_chips %stack1 %stack2 %stack3


[/ QUOTE ]
Which is actually: total_chips and then the probability of finishing first for each player,
which is simply the proportion of the chips in play that they currently hold.

[ QUOTE ]

Then it went into a long waiting period and then spit out one row of numbers:

1816214400 0.250000 0.303571 0.446429 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.305357


[/ QUOTE ]
The first number seems to be the number of times the innermost loop ran.
The second number is player 1's chance of winning.
The third number is player 1's chance of finishing second.
The fourth number is player 1's chance of finishing third.
I supect the fifth, sixth, seventh numbers are 4th 5th + 6th position probability.
The last number is player 1's ICM value. - this is the useful number.

[ QUOTE ]

and a table. The table appears to be probabilities of people finishing in certain positions. But there's no guidance on how to interpret that.


[/ QUOTE ]

The table seems to be:
Postion, percentage of prizepool for that spot, chance player1 will finish in that spot, chance player1 will finish in a lower spot.

I'm not sure why this table is useful.

The last number is player 1's ICM value. (again).

[ QUOTE ]

In short, this program (presumably) does the heavy lifting nicely, but doesn't cross the t's and dot the i's, enabling a lay user to make much use of it.


[/ QUOTE ]
It only seems to give the numbers for player1.
It also seems to be much more complicated and take much longer than I expected it should.
Although it does seem to be able to cope with 16 players and paying out 10 spots.

My ICM code only calculates for paying out 3 spots but is effectively instant.

Insty.

Re: How not to deal at the final table
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gunny actually OFFERS a chip chop... to which Phat quickly says 50/50... Don't think he understood what a chip chop is...

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Tragic.